SAYNOTO0870.COM - Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call Costs

NoNumberTrans

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #45 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 10:31pm

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Wrong because the 101 number should work anywhere and get you through to the local police or local council at your normal geographic call rate with that call provider on that call package.

But presumably your point about having geographic alternatives published would be so that you can bypass any charging structure that was "premium" if such a scheme was imposed. I guess the purpose of having 101 as an access number is that it forces a different routing dependant on the called party's location (yes it can work with mobile's too, though cellular transmitter location ID is yet to be used in the uk). My point was that because it depends on your location, you would have to have an alternative geographic number for all potential receiving authorities

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #46 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 10:43pm

Quote:

But presumably your point about having geographic alternatives published would be so that you can bypass any charging structure that was "premium" if such a scheme was imposed. I guess the purpose of having 101 as an access number is that it forces a different routing dependant on the called party's location (yes it can work with mobile's too, though cellular transmitter location ID is yet to be used in the uk). My point was that because it depends on your location, you would have to have an alternative geographic number for all potential receiving authorities

No I live in the real world rather than in your theoretical world.

In the real world most citizens live rather dull and predicatable lives where they live in one location and go to work in another.

Therefore they know who their police authority and their local council is and can get the specific geographic number for those bodies from the phone book, from directory enquiries or from the websites for those bodies. These calls will be charged at whatever rate applicable on your call package with your current phone provider. As per 01 and 02 or 0845 and 0870 for that matter.

101 is just a helpful add on overlay in addition to the geographic numbers, so that if you are out of area you call 101 and it costs you no more than on the package you are on because 101 should be charged on just the same basis as calling an 01 or 02 number.

Just because the number is 101 that does not mean it cannot be charged on the same geographic tariff as 01 or 02 numbers. That is just the crazed scheme of Pito (the 0870 casualty bombings number people) and the Home Office who are already high on the abuses of 0845 and 0870 and not in touch with the movement to return everything to geographic call pricing.

Are you sure you shouldn't be called ILoveNumberTranslation? Roll Eyes

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NoNumberTrans

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #47 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 11:30pm

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101 is just a helpful add on overlay in addition to the geographic numbers, so that if you are out of area you call 101 and it costs you no more than on the package you are on because 101 should be charged on just the same basis as calling an 01 or 02 number.

Actually I agree with you there, that's how I think it should work.

Quote:

Are you sure you shouldn't be called ILoveNumberTranslation? Roll Eyes

Do you always resort to looking for some ulterior motive for someone not always having the same point of view as you? Do you think I'm some Ofcom lackey with the job of disputing points of view held on this site?

Having read some of the responses to my posts, I can see why this is another issue that animates you as much as 0870 and I have changed my view accordingly. Isn't that the point of such open forums. Maybe one day you'll have a different view on things after someone else has made a point.

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Dave

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #48 - Nov 3^rd, 2005 at 11:46pm

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101 is just a helpful add on overlay in addition to the geographic numbers, so that if you are out of area you call 101 and it costs you no more than on the package you are on because 101 should be charged on just the same basis as calling an 01 or 02 number.

I agree. Just how many people have a problem remembering or locating their local police force's non-emergency number?

What's more, the difference between emergency and non-emergency is that for a non-emergency you might need to phone from out of area. So there wouldn't be any need to phone 999 from out of area.

One solution would be to allow the number to be dialled in the form of STD code followed by 101, as well as dialling 101 with no STD code. For example, to dial London's SNEN from outside London, 020 101. The snag being that "national dialling" numbers have been allocated which have probably put paid to that.

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #49 - Nov 4^th, 2005 at 1:16am

Quote:

One solution would be to allow the number to be dialled in the form of STD code followed by 101, as well as dialling 101 with no STD code. For example, to dial London's SNEN from outside London, 020 101. The snag being that "national dialling" numbers have been allocated which have probably put paid to that.

Dave that is an excellent idea which you should include in your consultation response as indeed may I.

Clearly loads of people live in Kent, Surrey Bucks etc and then work in London but may need to call the police back in their home area about their lost wallet, grafiiti daubed on their wall at home or whatever and yet 101 at their office in London would only out them through to the Met non emergency call centre. So unless 101 has a 16 layer deep touch tone system how are you going to tell it you want to speak to the control room for Surrey Police instead.

Why are they going to all this trouble to bring in the technology of yesteryear 50 years too late when the whole PSTN system with phone numbers is about to die out? I repeat where are their nationally accessible non emergency Voip addresses (where it would then be easy to have a next layer computer screen picking Surrey or Northumberland Police force as required) when this is the way of the future from here on in.

What this is really all about is the Police having got a lot of flack for their 0845 single number contact centres, then trying to think of something better and coming up with something even worse as a result. Shocked

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« Last Edit: Nov 4^th, 2005 at 1:26am by N/A »

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #50 - Nov 4^th, 2005 at 1:26am

Quote:

Do you always resort to looking for some ulterior motive for someone not always having the same point of view as you? Do you think I'm some Ofcom lackey with the job of disputing points of view held on this site?

I am sorry if my comments upset you although pleased to hear that you have come round to the point of view that although 101 may provide a handy shortcut if you don't know the local police or council number there is no reason for it to cost the customer any more to call. It is that way of thinking that unfortunately led to the creation of the whole 084 and 087 nonsense premium charges in the first place.

I think we fell out because you possibly implied I was being daft by suggesting that people carry round 50 different police force numbers with them and I possibly then went a little OTT in proving my point as to why that wasn't necessary.

I hope you didn't take my comments too personally. They weren't really directed at you but rather the brainwashing that BT seem to have so successfuly achieved over the years that number translation is a service for which people must pay extra. So that people then end up having a predisposition to assuming it is reasonablt to be charged something extra for number translation. I just couldn't help but see the obvious irony in your forum name being NoNumberTrans, so would have expected you to really be the first to disapprove of the whole 101 concept.

Anyhow I'm sorry that we seem to have started off on the wrong foot with one another as a result of this.

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« Last Edit: Nov 4^th, 2005 at 6:17pm by N/A »

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Tanllan Supreme Member Offline Posts: 797 Gender:	Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call Reply #51 - Nov 4^th, 2005 at 4:40pm Quote: the whole 112 concept? 116!
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Dave

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #52 - Nov 4^th, 2005 at 5:38pm

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One solution would be to allow the number to be dialled in the form of STD code followed by 101, as well as dialling 101 with no STD code. For example, to dial London's SNEN from outside London, 020 101. The snag being that "national dialling" numbers have been allocated which have probably put paid to that.

Of course, according to the National Telephone Numbering Plan, these numbers are not for where they would be given out. Thus, it would probably a simple job for Ofcom to hand out some different prefixes for those telcos affected, and for the telcos to reprogram the NGNs so that they point to the new numbers.

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #53 - Nov 4^th, 2005 at 6:21pm

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116!

101 I meant as I'm sure you realise Tanllan.

Of course it would be nice if they had the good sense to use 116 since this is proposed as the EU standard for non emergency numbers.

Anyhow by the time we get there local loop unbundling will mean loads of people can have a broadband connection and voip without paying BT line rental, so they won't want to call a POTS/PSTN number. But sadly I won't be one of them as I live on a middle sized country exchange where I doubt unbundling will be attractive. Although with 1900 lines we have more hope than exchanges with only 300.

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OverlordKain

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #54 - Nov 4^th, 2005 at 9:30pm

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Of course it would be nice if they had the good sense to use 116 since this is proposed as the EU standard for non emergency numbers.

It would be so nice. A system is only as good as how well it holds up under fringe cases. Well, here's a fringe case, probably about the most extreme fringe case I can imagine, which will strengthen the case for 116. The A3(NI) crosses the UK/RoI border 5 times in about as many miles. Say you get into a fender-bender and need non-emergency police service. Does the mobile phone reception match what country you're in? (Do you even know what country you're in?) Would 101 work if you're on the UK side of the border, or would it go dead even if you're on the UK side and happen to be in a region that gets a stronger signal from a RoI cellsite?

What about 116? RoI is more likely to take up anything from Brussels long before the UK does. So if the UK goes for 116 also, chances are you'll get put through to either Cavan Garda station (RoI) or Dungannon PSNI station (UK), and at least you'll get an answer.

I know the border areas of Northern Ireland are a huge fringe case, but that's probably why NI gets used as a testing ground for new telecoms arrangements.

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Tanllan Supreme Member Offline Posts: 797 Gender:	Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call Reply #55 - Nov 4^th, 2005 at 10:39pm Of course now that you bring the RoI/ NI border into it one starts to wonder why Oftel, as it then was, ignored the RoI thoughts of using 048 from both sides of the border. Oh, sorry, I forgot that we should not co-operate.
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jrawle

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #56 - Nov 8^th, 2005 at 12:17pm

I've only just noticed this thread. Despite reading lots of reports in the media about a proposed non-emergency number, it's the first time I'd heard the word cost associated with it. I thought the idea was that the number would be free. If it's going to cost 10p, might this not encourage people to continue to use 999 inappropriately? Even if they refuse the take the call and direct the caller to 101, it's still extra burden on 999.

If this is introduced, all police forces should be required to operate geographical numbers alongside. Then people who are lazy can call 101 and pay 10p, the rest of us can dial the ordinary number (after looking it up if necessary - after all, it's not an emergency, so what's the hurry?) In Leicester the number is 2222222, nice and easy to remember.

From the Ofcom document, I note the Home Office favour, "10 pence-per-call initially, with the intention to moving to free
to caller in the future." What's the point of this? If they want it to be free, why does it have to have a charge initially? That's not going to encourage people to use the number.

Finally, I couldn't help noticing references to: "Special Service Basic Rate and Special Service Higher Rate as provided on
0845 and 0870 numbers (formerly known as Local Rate and National Rate)". And, "Genuine Local Rate or Genuine National Rate". Are the latter the new official terms for 01 and 02 numbers?

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #57 - Nov 8^th, 2005 at 12:22pm

Quote:

"Genuine Local Rate or Genuine National Rate". Are the latter the new official terms for 01 and 02 numbers?

Well those certainly ought to be the terms for 01 and 02 numbers whilst 084 and 087 and 070 numbers should all be referred to as "Disguised Premium Rate". Do you think we could also persuade Ofcom to perhaps adopt this terminology too. Wink

I hope you will be responding to the Police 101 number consultation.

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #58 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 12:57pm

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was talking to a friend who works as an FOI officer at a local police force, they wish to remain annon for fear of being sacked.

I have just recived this E-mail from his private mail account.

It brings up interesting questions that the Police Forces are obviously knowing they are doing wrong and are censoring any responses.
I doubt that if an MP sent in exactly the same response as we are, that theyd get the cut n past response which is being sent out at the moment.

----

Hi ...

Was nice talking to you on the phone yesterday.
Yes we are aware of a website called saynoto0870.com which, according to the power's that be, is sending excessive amounts of 0870/0845 FOIA requests.

The IC office is also aware of them as well and has sent an Email to all the police FOI departments with several instructions. I have tried to track down this exact E-mail but I have failed.

I however have attached the standard draft response which was also sent out by the IC office which we are to send to any further requests regarding 0870/0845 or any telephony matter.

Personally I feel that this is unreasonable as I explained to you on the phone, but at the end of the day I am only following orders. It is not hard for us just to re-send the response we sent to another similar request.

Please keep my name and where I work private as I am sure I would be sacked for telling you what I have told you.

Regards.

XXXXXXX

The above item was posted by mc661 in a thread he started in the FOI section of the sanynot0870 discussion forum.

However I felt sure that the contents of his message were also likely to be of relevance to anyone posting in this Police 101 non emergency number thread.

It seems simply outrageous that the Police can try to use these bully boy tactics to scare off legitmate enquiries about their own disgraceful actions in signing up to the use of these disguised premium rate numbers and failing to follow Ofcom guidance to provide an alternative geographic phone number. And then when they get repeated requests to disclose geographic alternatives they try to portray those asking the questions as disruptive troublemakers.

Aside from making an appeal to the Information Commissioner I would also consider making an appeal to the Independent Police Complaints Commission if anyone should receive such a letter or email from a uk Police force.

These actions by the Police in sending out such responses to complaints about the use of 0845 are also worth mentioning in any response to the 101 number consultation.

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andy9

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Re: Ofcom Consults on 101 Police Number & Call
Reply #59 - Nov 9^th, 2005 at 1:32pm

NGM, if you have a copy of the draft reply referred to. perhaps you could post it here.

Then we could judge for ourselves the validity of the assertion that it constitutes bully-boy tactics or an attempt to propagandise and defame enquirers as troublemakers.

As this draft is said to rely on advice from the IC office, it seems rather unlikely that such tactics as those you allege have actually been counselled.

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