SAYNOTO0870.COM - How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870

nottRobin

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Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2
Reply #75 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 12:25pm

Okay. Thanks for all the information. Does Daniel have an email address? I might appeal to him directly.

You said others have shown interest. Did they send in emails? Do you have their contact details? If you have the contact details of even one other designer or developer who has shown interest, it would be helpful to give this some momentum.

Thanks very much for your help,
Robin.

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NGMsGhost

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Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2
Reply #76 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 12:26pm

My personal opinion is that Daniel does very nicely thank you out of the site's click thru banner advertising and that maintaining the site is something that fits in with his other skill sets as a web developer. However unlike the rest of us he does not seem to be very passionate about actually getting revenue share from 084/7 numbers stopped (I don't think he has ever responded to an Ofcom consultation on the subject) and I think sees the opposition to these numbers more as an opportunity for a well trafficed website with significant earnings to the site owner from click thru advertising banners. Wink

Quote:

Does Daniel have an email address? I might appeal to him directly.

I believe that http://www.saynoto0870.com/contact/ also reaches the same email inbox.

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nottRobin Newbie Offline Posts: 9 Nottingham, UK Gender:	Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2 Reply #77 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 12:36pm Thanks NGMsGhost. If what you say is true, he is entirely within his rights. He, by the sounds of it, owns the site and the data is his intellectual property. I certainly have no inherent right to it. I will of course attempt to contact him anyway and see what he thinks of my ideas. Cheers, Robin.
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nottRobin

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Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2
Reply #78 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 12:50pm

Email sent:

Quote:

date: 10 August 2010 12:48:29 UTC+1
subject: SayNoTo0870 - Helping people make cheaper phone calls

I have been having a discussion with some of the administrators on the SayNoTo0870 forum. You can read it here:
http://bit.ly/bDaCIt

The bottom line is, I think that SayNoTo0870 is a great idea, and the collection of numbers that you have could be a fantastic resource to help millions of people save money.

It would be great if a number of things could happen:
- The website could be redesigned to look more modern and aesthetically pleasing
- Further functionality could be added to the website to make it easier and quicker to use
- Mobile phone applications could be created to further help people avoid calling 08*** numbers

I believe there are a number of web developers and designers who would be enthusiastic about helping to make this happen, and for free. All I ask is that you let us have access to the existing data so we can develop on it. If you are absolutely on board, giving us access to the server with the site on it would be even better, so we could redesign the existing site.

If you are worried about loss of revenue through this exercise, I can assure you that:
a) Many of us would happily work for free
b) The new site could remain ad-supported, and would be more popular = increased revenue
c) The mobile application could also be ad-supported for more revenue.

If you like we could guarantee you at least equal income from the site going forward as you have now, or we could promise you a percentage of any income the sites make from advertisement.

Please consider it.

Kind regards,
Robin Winslow Morris.

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nottRobin

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Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2
Reply #79 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 1:40pm

I just received the following reply from Daniel:

Quote:

Hi Robin,

Thanks for your e-mail.

The website is currently in the final stages of being redesigned. This has been worked on since the beginning of this year, and I hope for this to be made available very shortly (within the next month).

The new website will add additional featues, as well as improving the speed and functionality of the website.

In addition to this we are working on multi-platform mobile access. This is proving to be a little more complicated, but again should be available shortly.

Some of the posts on the forum will need to be edited/removed as it encourages unauthorised use of the site.

If you have any other suggestions, please feel free to e-mail me.

Thanks
Daniel

This is very promising, so I guess we can hope to see a new site pretty soon. Allowing for natural human optimism, I'd say probably allow 3 months. Still this is much quicker than I could have done anything. So I'm look forward to it

.

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NGMsGhost

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Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2
Reply #80 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 2:56pm

nottRobin wrote on Aug 10^th, 2010 at 1:40pm:

This is very promising, so I guess we can hope to see a new site pretty soon. Allowing for natural human optimism, I'd say probably allow 3 months. Still this is much quicker than I could have done anything. So I'm look forward to it

.

Robin,

I wonder if the proposed site revisions may include a method for end users to report any verified or unverified number that they find to no longer work or to positively score any unverified number that is getting through to the right place. This would give Daniel or the moderators much better tools to rapidly prune out numbers that no longer work and to elevate to verified status numbers that a lot of site users are reporting as working successfully.

I also believe that anyone contributing a number to the site should have to join it with a user name and password and email address to do so and then should be given moderation rights to alter or update that number at least for so long as it remains in the unverified numbers camp (which past experience shows can often be for several years in the case of many numbers). Also if other site users start scoring a number as not working properly any more the original contributor could then be automatically set up to receive emails alerting them to that fact so that they could update the number with a new working number if they have one.

Of course there is always the potential for abuse by those with malicious intent. This is why I think anyone wanting to add numbers to the site or provide a feedback score on them should have to join the site with a user name and password. This means that if it is later proved that a site member has maliciously added many non working numbers to the site or has reported good numbers as not working (that in fact worked perfectly well) then all their false feedback and contributed numbers ought to then be able to be easily removed.

As the site currently stands it would unfortunately be relatively easy for an opponent of www.saynoto0870.com to start flooding the site with unverified numbers that don't work for major companies in order to try to undermine the site's credibility.

I hope these thoughts are useful to either you or to Daniel if he is also following the contents of this thread?

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nottRobin

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Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2
Reply #81 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 3:03pm

I agree with all of this except for the part about forcing people to register onto the site to submit a number. The site relies upon it being as easy as possible to submit alternative numbers. I'd much rather allow anyone to submit any number, and then have a mechanism whereby people can instantly report numbers as failed (once again without logging in), so fake / useless numbers quickly fall to the bottom of the search results.

I do think it's a good idea to allow people to log in and then link numbers they have submitted to their account so they can go back and change them.

Daniel hasn't let me see the site yet, he's just told me it exists. I don't think we are feasibly going to have any way of knowing what functionality it has until it is made live.

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Dave

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Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2
Reply #82 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 8:41pm

nottRobin wrote on Aug 10^th, 2010 at 3:03pm:

I agree with all of this except for the part about forcing people to register onto the site to submit a number. The site relies upon it being as easy as possible to submit alternative numbers. I'd much rather allow anyone to submit any number, and then have a mechanism whereby people can instantly report numbers as failed (once again without logging in), so fake / useless numbers quickly fall to the bottom of the search results.

We must not underestimate the level of feedback that may ensue if a system were to be implemented as nottRobin suggests here.

The best solution would be one which requires much less human intervention for each individual report/contact message from each individual user. However, I am not sure how this could be implemented, especially as there are many entries that give the same geographic alternative.

Other types of update include the addition of extra or replacement 08 number(s).

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2
Reply #83 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 9:50pm

Noting the above exchanges with interest.

I hope that in planning the re-launch of the site and associated additional "smart phone" apps, consideration has been given to the points listed below. I recognise that as this is a private venture (other than the data and the forum postings which are contributed to give it its value), there is no need for open discussion of these issues to be encouraged or to bear on what is actually done.

A smart phone app will have to compete with well established existing apps which are understood to use data derived from this site. One hopes that proper measures will be taken to shut down or disable these competitors, as well as the pirate websites that are also seen to use suspiciously similar data. This is vital to protect the efforts of contributors from being used for profit by others and to protect the commercial interests of the site itself.
Whilst those who contribute numbers are doubtless content for the money earned from advertising to be put towards the maintenance of the site, there will be continuing concerns that much of the advertising is promoting the businesses which the site exists to oppose. I hope that careful thought has been given to the economics of the site in this context. Given that there have been many offers of volunteer development resource, it is disappointing that none of these appear to have been taken up, as this would have removed some of the pressure to carry inappropriate advertising.
There has been discussion of a suitable new name for the site, given that 0870 has not been a revenue sharing number for over 12 months now. It is primarily the practice of revenue sharing that is opposed, not just unnecessarily high call costs levied by telephone companies. Ofcom has "said no to 0870", although we await stronger regulation that is likely to be announced shortly. BT has also "said no to 0870" and now charges less for 0844 calls than for non-inclusive geographic and 03 calls. References to the old (current) name and its historic past achievements cannot be lost, however it is no longer contemporary. A large part of the campaigning element of the site is educating people about what is going on with this very difficult topic. This is not helped by a name that actually creates confusion from the very start.

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nottRobin

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Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2
Reply #84 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 10:04pm

Hi SilentCallsVictim. Thanks for joining in

Quote:

A smart phone app will have to compete with well established existing apps

If there are existing apps, I would suggest rather than shutting them down, or trying to compete with them, we get in touch with them and see if we can collaborate on an improved solution. Seems like a much better solution.

Quote:

there will be continuing concerns that much of the advertising is promoting the businesses which the site exists to oppose

Apparently, only the site's owner, Daniel has any control over the advertising, and he probably receives all the revenue. However, I don't think it's prudent to be over-militaristic about selecting our advertising carefully. After all, almost all companies use some 08 numbers, and just because a company uses an 08 number doesn't mean they're all bad. It doesn't seem that hypocritical to me to provide alternatives to Tesco numbers yet still have an advert for Tesco.

Quote:

There has been discussion of a suitable new name for the site

Good point about the site name. It would be a good idea to change it, although the name "saynoto0870" carries a lot of pedigree, so we should at least forward saynoto0870 to the new site name, whatever it is.

Robin.

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CJT-80 Global Moderator Offline Posts: 1,714 Manchester Gender:	Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2 Reply #85 - Aug 11^th, 2010 at 10:24pm Just to add my input regarding the name, Dave's blog (well the SNT0870 one) is called Fair Telecoms I suggested sometime ago this might be a worthwhile name
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NGMsGhost Supreme Member Offline The Forum Ghost of NonGeographicalMan<b r /> Posts: 2,720 Surrey, United Kingdom Gender:	Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2 Reply #86 - Aug 11^th, 2010 at 11:17pm I see that the site owner has removed posts from the thread that speculated about the commercial benefits he may derive from running the site. However I note that he has not deemed it appropriate to deny that he manages to earn some form of income from the operation of the site.
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nottRobin

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Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2
Reply #87 - Aug 11^th, 2010 at 11:29pm

I noticed that too. Although the deleted posts weren't just suggesting he gets commercial gain from the site (which isn't so bad) but also that he doesn't have an appropriate enthusiasm for the cause (that is, campaigning against the existence of 08*** numbers) - in fact that he deliberately makes life hard for those of us that would like to use this site and its information to further the cause - which is more objectionable.

I think these judgements about our dear site owner might be a little unfair, however, they are not without grounds. It would be far more fair and up-front of Daniel if he would just clarify his position by posting on this forum, rather than covertly deleting posts.

However that probably won't happen. In fact, this post will probably get deleted. Ah well.

Oh another thing is, a very informative post by someone who has actually developed an 0870 mobile phone app was also deleted. That was a real shame. We should be allying with him.

Robin.

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CJT-80

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Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2
Reply #88 - Aug 11^th, 2010 at 11:29pm

NGMsGhost wrote on Aug 11^th, 2010 at 11:17pm:

I see that the site owner has removed posts from the thread that speculated about the commercial benefits he may derive from running the site. However I note that he has not deemed it appropriate to deny that he manages to earn some form of income from the operation of the site.

Having my own domain name, and hosting space, I can personally appreciate the need to have some sort of "return" from such a popular site, however I'd imagine it would be around enough to cover the on going running costs of the site, as apposed to making any "profit"

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Regards,

CJT-80

Any comments made are my own and are not those of SayNoTo0870.com

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NGMsGhost

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Re: How Can We Improve SayNoTo0870 - Part2
Reply #89 - Aug 12^th, 2010 at 8:21am

CJT-80 wrote on Aug 11^th, 2010 at 11:29pm:

Having my own domain name, and hosting space, I can personally appreciate the need to have some sort of "return" from such a popular site, however I'd imagine it would be around enough to cover the on going running costs of the site, as opposed to making any "profit"

Surely that depends entirely on the amount of site traffic and the third party ad banners you run. A busy site will be highly profitable. A quiet site will only cover your own development time. Otherwise how does www.topcashback.co.uk make any money given that all the commission on the directly linked marketing parties is paid to the members.

I note that www.saynoto0870.com is frequently a very busy site indeed that quite often runs out of sufficient bandwidth to handle all the traffic it is receiving due to recent further traffic increases. Wink

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