Lords Hansard text for 17 Dec 200717 Dec 2007 (pt 0006)

Two minor but irritating issues have arisen in recent days. Can the Minister explain why the helpline for families who are worrying about HMRC data losses is on an 0845 number? The misuse of 0845 numbers as a revenue source for government departments has been a growing scandal to which there has been no satisfactory response. It is highly unsatisfactory that an 0845 number is being used in this case.

[...]

The noble Lord also mentioned the problems surrounding communications with the general public through 0845 numbers. In the light of these difficulties, when the department does correspond with anyone directly affected by them, it is absolutely incumbent on officials that they guarantee that the reader and recipient of the letter is the person to whom it is addressed. Given that, of course such a letter will have a little more than just an initial and the surname of the person to whom it is addressed. It is bound to carry some additional information in order to make sure that the communication is delivered correctly. I hear what the noble Lord says, but noble Lords will recognise that this is a misadventure which has caused the Government a great deal of concern and grief. This is not anything more than the product of the need to provide interaction between departments at a much higher level than in the past. Further, the amount of information which a government now inevitably compile is much greater than in the past as a result of the expectations of our citizenry. It will therefore be appreciated that it is important to look at the Poynter report and the further investigation into the wider issues of government in order to identify clearly the constructive road ahead.

[...]

"fairly quickly?"
I recall that on the day of the IRA bomb in Manchester a client needed a freephone number.
BT had it working within forty-five minutes of my telephoned request. OK, the (second) request was to someone fairly (very) senior, but presumably the government could do the same, or have opened up normal lines.
BT can even provide lines on Christmas Eve (separate story, before I go too far off topic).

Heinz wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2007 at 9:49am:


Tanllan said, ["fairly quickly?"
I recall that on the day of the IRA bomb in Manchester a client needed a freephone number.
BT had it working within forty-five minutes of my telephoned request. OK, the (second) request was to someone fairly (very) senior, but presumably the government could do the same, or have opened up normal lines." ]

I suggest you email this MP with your and Tanllan's comments, maybe with proposed questions and comments to Darling in a much stronger and more insistent tone.

House of Commons Hansard Debates for 05 Dec 2007 (pt 0016)

The Select Committee report also addressed the important question of costs, particularly in terms of telephone systems. It rightly identified the use of 0845 and 0870 numbers for helplines and in call centres. They are proliferating in the benefits system now that face-to-face contact appears to be a thing of the past in the Department for Work and Pensions. Those costs are enormous. Although the assumption is often made that people have a landline, so the rates are relatively cheap, the social fund's evidence is that up to half of the calls it receives are made from a mobile phone. Depending on the network operator, when someone calls an 0845 number, or even an 0800 one, from a mobile phone it can cost up to 40p a minute. They might end up being on the phone for anything from 10 to 50 minutes, depending on the helpline that they are calling and the reason for doing so. That soon adds up to a substantial sum that people are being asked to pay simply to get what most would say is their entitlement under the welfare system, which is supposed to be available to all.

Rob Marris: I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. Does he agree that paragraph 15 of the Government's response, on the 0845 numbers, is rather a weak response and that it is based on a misunderstanding? I understand that calls to 0845 numbers cost four or five times the cost of a regular landline call, so a local call on the regular landline might be 1p a minute whereas an 0845 call might be 5p a minute. We all know how long people may have to wait on the phone, and these interviews can be lengthy. Is he also aware that last December Lord Warner, who was then a Minister in the Department of Health, put out a circular specifically discouraging general practitioners' surgeries from using 0845 numbers? These numbers are another proliferation of back-door charging, but they are particularly distressing in respect of the Department for Work and Pensions, which deals with some of the most vulnerable and poorest people in our society.

Danny Alexander: I could not agree more. The hon. Gentleman rightly points out that these calls are more expensive even from a landline, and they can be massively expensive from a mobile phone. The Government often respond by saying that they do not obtain any financial benefit from these numbers, but that is not the point, because our constituents pay that money. It does not matter who the money is going to. We are talking about people who might be seeking to claim benefits amounting to £40 or £50 a week, so if they spend 50 minutes on their mobile phone calling a helpline that charges 40p a minute, I believe that that adds up to £20—the hon. Gentleman is better at maths than I am—and a significant chunk of the money that they hope to claim.

The Government need to do two things. They must make 0800 numbers standard throughout from landlines, and they must work with mobile phone operators to get the costs as close to nil as makes no difference.

Rob Marris: Or 03 numbers.

Danny Alexander: Or 03 numbers, as the hon. Gentleman says. It is a consequence of a point that I made earlier that these systems appear to be set up in the interests of the system and not in the interests of the claimant. It is crucial in the development and simplification of the benefits system that the claimant's interests come first. This could be a quick win for the Minister, because the sort of instruction that was issued to GPs could equally be issued across the DWP, and I am sure that new phone systems could be put in place so that people calling the social fund helpline before Christmas do not have to pay huge sums. I hope that she will explain what she will do to make that happen. This situation is a consequence of what my hon. Friend the Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Julia Goldsworthy) and I have described as the faceless state. The DWP is at the forefront of an increasingly faceless and bureaucratic system, where the system's interests are put far ahead of the claimant's.

Here, here, here again.

What an outrage. Why doesn't one of these MPs have the b---s to ask why the government is, clearly under Brown's direction and insistence, using these numbers deliberately to deliver further stealth taxes to the Exchequer, often from those suffering trauma, stress, illness and impoverishment? What is Socialism and Labour supposed to be about? Penalizing the poor and suffering? I don't think so!

Other parliamentary questions have been asked previously about the actual revenues being generated for the Exchequer from the use of these numbers by government departments, and the answers have indicated that large sums of money are involved, not "nothing" as claimed within this question as an answer which has been given relative to this additional abuse!

idb wrote on Dec 24^th, 2007 at 9:17am:

Here here here yet again.

May I refer readers back to my earlier posting on these exchanges and to further links provided there.

Most significant is the reply from the Minister: -

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Dec 6^th, 2007 at 12:31pm:

[Scottish parliament]

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/pqa/wa-05/wa0317.htm

Telecommunications

Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): To ask the Scottish Executive what 0870 numbers (a) it uses, (b) its agencies use and (c) non-departmental public bodies use and what revenue it has derived from each such number in each year since 1999.

  (S2W-14520)


Mr Tom McCabe: Information on the use of 0870 numbers across the Scottish Executive, its agencies and non-departmental public bodies is not held centrally and therefore the information requested could only be provided at disproportionate cost.

Communications and Information Services Division manages telephony services used within the Scottish Executive. The division does not use any 0870 numbers in the provision of telephony services.


Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): To ask the Scottish Executive how many 0845 numbers (a) it uses, (b) its agencies use and (c) non-departmental public bodies use and what revenue it has derived, or costs it has incurred, from each such number in each year since 1999.

  (S2W-14521)


Mr Tom McCabe: Information on the use of 0845 numbers across the Scottish Executive, its agencies and non-departmental public bodies is not held centrally and therefore the information requested could only be provided at disproportionate cost.

Communications and Information Services Division manages telephony services used within the Scottish Executive. The Division uses one 0845 number in the provision of telephony services, specifically to facilitate calls to the Scottish Executive on a local call tariff from any where in the UK. This service costs about £9,000 per annum.


Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): To ask the Scottish Executive how many 0800, 08000, 0500 or other "free to the caller" numbers (a) it uses, (b) its agencies use and (c) non-departmental public bodies use and what revenue it has derived, or costs it has incurred, from each such number in each year since 1999.

  (S2W-14522)


Mr Tom McCabe: Information on the use of 0800, 08000, 0500 numbers across the Scottish Executive, its agencies and non-departmental public bodies is not held centrally and therefore the information requested could only be provided at disproportionate cost.

Communications and Information Services Division manages telephony services used within the Scottish Executive; the Division makes use of two 0800 numbers to provide remote access to the Scottish Executive’s IT network at a combined cost of around £100,000 per annum. A call to an 0800 number is free to the caller with the called party paying the full cost of the call. A further four 0800 numbers in use and registered in the name of the Scottish Executive have been identified by British Telecommunications plc but no cost data is held centrally.


Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): To ask the Scottish Executive to what extent it advertises a geographic telephone number as an alternative to each non-geographic number used to access services provided by it or its agencies and non-departmental public bodies.

  (S2W-14523)


Mr Tom McCabe: The Scottish Executive advertises telephone numbers for services through British Telecommunications plc phonebooks, the Scottish Executive website and individual publications and leaflets.

The Scottish Executive’s central switchboard and enquiry facility has two published numbers, one geographic and one non-geographic. In 2004 the decision was made to promote the use of the 0845 774 1741 number rather than the 0131 556 8400 in order to provide equality of access across Scotland. The British Telecommunications plc phonebook entries are being updated to reflect this and work is currently underway on redesigning the content and format of these entries.

The Scottish Executive website advertises both the geographical and non-geographical numbers wherever appropriate.

Information on the use of advertising of non geographic numbers as an alternative to geographic numbers across the Scottish Executive, its agencies and non-departmental public bodies is not held centrally and therefore the information requested could only be provided at disproportionate cost.


Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): To ask the Scottish Executive how many 09 or other premium rate numbers (a) it uses, (b) its agencies use and (c) non-departmental public bodies use and what revenue it has derived from each such number in each year since 1999.

  (S2W-14524)


Mr Tom McCabe: Information on the use of 09 or other premium numbers across the Scottish Executive, its agencies and non-departmental public bodies is not held centrally and therefore the information requested could only be provided at disproportionate cost.

Communications and Information Services Division manages telephony services used within the Scottish Executive. The division does not use any 09 or other premium rate numbers in the provision of telephony services.


Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): To ask the Scottish Executive what changes it will make to its use of telephone numbers, in light of Ofcom’s guidance for government departments using 0845 and 0870 numbers, referred to in Number Translation Services - Options for the future, published by Ofcom on 22 October 2004.

  (S2W-14525)

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