SAYNOTO0870.COM - NGN charges

andy9

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Re: NGN charges - get real!
Reply #15 - Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:43pm

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:21pm:

Tanllan wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:12pm:

But if you want the service of routeing why do you want me to pay for it?

Why not pay for it yourself, if it is convenient and valuable (and useful) to you?

After all I use call divert on our various mobile and landlines for that reason; I do not expect clients to have to pay for my convenience? Or am I missing something? Apart from covert income.

You accuse me of 'covert income'. As stated elsewhere, I do not receive ANY TYPE OF INCOME/REVENUE SHARE to any of my NTS numbers.

I will not pay to receive calls. I will not pay for sales companies to telephone spam me. I will not pay for banks and credit card companies to call me. If I am forced into that situation by the reduction of NTS to geographic rate, I will only give out a mobile number. My CALLERS WILL HAVE TO PAY MORE.

If I had only thought of my own convenience, I would have used only a mobile number, meaning that my CALLERS WOULD PAY MORE. I use various NTS for the benefit of my callers. I have been told on several occasions that people were really pleased to get through to me without having to try several locations.

Additionally: Following your own logic, mobile numbers should also be reduced to geographic rate, as the mobile telcos receive 'covert income' from all calls made to their numbers.

The point is - you have hinted it yourself - you are only thinking of your own convenience. The call diversion, the added value to you, is at your caller's expense. You would not be obliged to give a mobile number instead; you could give a landline number, and pay for the call diversion yourself.

If you were abroad, you wouldn't expect your callers to be charged extra to cover the roaming charge. No, I'm wrong; I suppose you'd get an 070 number instead.

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tripleeight

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Re: NGN charges - get real!
Reply #16 - Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:47pm

I will not pay to receive calls. I will not pay for sales companies to telephone spam me. I will not pay for banks and credit card companies to call me. If I am forced into that situation by the reduction of NTS to geographic rate, I will only give out a mobile number. My CALLERS WILL HAVE TO PAY MORE.

If I had only thought of my own convenience, I would have used only a mobile number, meaning that my CALLERS WOULD PAY MORE. I use various NTS for the benefit of my callers. I have been told on several occasions that people were really pleased to get through to me without having to try several locations.

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« Last Edit: Dec 14^th, 2005 at 12:05am by DaveM »

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andy9 Supreme Member Offline Posts: 505	Re: NGN charges - get real! Reply #17 - Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:54pm You seem to have merely repeated your mantra. As we are pointing out, you are getting the routing facilities at your callers' expense. Quote: I will not pay for sales companies to telephone spam me I see our approaches differ - why give them any phone number at all?
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tripleeight

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Re: NGN charges - get real!
Reply #18 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 12:07am

andy9 wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:54pm:

You seem to have merely repeated your mantra.

As we are pointing out, you are getting the routing facilities at your callers' expense.

It is still cheaper for them to call the 08 NTS number then call the mobile directly - something they would have to do if I lose 08 functionality.

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Dave

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Re: NGN charges - get real!
Reply #19 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 12:11am

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:04pm:

I believe you've missed some key points:

When you call from your geographic number (eg 0209999999) to another geographic (eg 01419999999), your call is delivered landline to landline. The call is direct. There is no middle-provider. [...]

The point I was making was in connection with the cost associated with the number. When I referred to calling a number 'direct' or via 0870 it had nothing to do with how many providers it might go through.

When calling the number direct, you are charged market price for a telephone call from one landline to another. When you call via 0870 you are charged for the NTS which routes your call to the underlying number. Therefore, the caller is paying, on a per minute basis for the provision of the NTS.

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:04pm:

[...] I suspect alot of the smaller SME telcos will choose to close the service, as alot of NTS users are SoHo/SME companies who simply CANNOT afford to pay for incoming calls. This will lead to job losses in the telecom industry, closure of telcos and an increase in market share by BT, leaving both individuals and businesses less product and service choice in the telecom market.

Oh, that's alright then! Let's keep prices high just to keep these smaller telcos in existance and their employees in work. Roll Eyes

I believe that alot of this competition in providers of NTS is at the direct expense of the caller, who is the general consumer who the competition is supposed to be benefitting!!!

Such competition is not driving down prices, but helping to keep them up at the old BT national rate.

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:04pm:

Let me back this up by giving you a real-life example:
1) I have an 0870 number, an 08445 number and an 0845 number. I do not receive outpayment on any of these numbers, so I am NOT USING THEM FOR REVENUE SHARE.

...But the increased cost pays for the routing benefits it brings, thus you are receiving services in kind.

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:04pm:

1.2) The 08445 number is given out to friends and some family members. They have the benefit of getting hold of me anywhere, anytime and I don't see why I should pay to receive their call. [...]

2) I change location several times a week and need the flexibility which NTS provides me, including instant rerouting.
2.1) Some of the sites I visit do not allow me to give out any of their geographic numbers. Using an NTS number allows me to assure the sites that any calls I receive will not reveal their TLI.

See this thread where bloggs uses an 0870 for a similar purpose.

If your callers were charged normal geographical rate and you had to pay, you would not be paying for receiving their call. You would actually be paying for routing their call to you.

Of course, it is your choice, and the issue has never been whether a caller should pay extra to call someone or a company. It is the covert benefits of the number, whether they be by being paid revenue, by receiving services in kind or both. Or to put it another way, the numbers are/have been portrayed as being 'national rate', when this couldn't be further from the truth.

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tripleeight

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Re: NGN charges - get real!
Reply #20 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 12:15am

Dave wrote on Dec 14^th, 2005 at 12:11am:

Of course, it is your choice, and the issue has never been whether a caller should pay extra to call someone or a company. It is the covert benefits of the number, whether they be by being paid revenue, by receiving services in kind or both. Or to put it another way, the numbers are/have been portrayed as being 'national rate', when this couldn't be further from the truth.

The covert benefits of the number are there for the caller.

As stated elsewhere, immediate family members can dial an 0845 number to reach me on my mobile. There's no benefit to me there as I'm paying to receive the call. They get the benefit...of paying less then dialling the mobile directly and only having one number to call.

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« Last Edit: Dec 14^th, 2005 at 12:17am by Dave »

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Dave

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Re: NGN charges - get real!
Reply #21 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 3:05pm

tripleeight wrote on Dec 14^th, 2005 at 12:15am:

The covert benefits of the number are there for the caller.

I did say "covert benefits". What I meant was the covert charges taken in payment for those benefits. If your callers are to use your 0870 because it benefits them, they should be aware of the increased cost in return for those benefits.

The original purpose of 0870 was for businesses. Whilst there is nothing stopping an individual having such a number, for the purpose you describe, 070 personal numbers exist.

tripleeight wrote on Dec 14^th, 2005 at 12:15am:

[...] They get the benefit...of paying less then dialling the mobile directly and only having one number to call.

We'll have to agree to disagree on who gets the benefits, although whether there is a benefit relative to mobile charges depends on which provider and package one calls from.

Up to now, this thread has been about your 0870 number for personal use. Most are used as business contact numbers, and that is the reason Saynoto0870 exists. We also do not object to all 0870 services such as dial-through international call providers, who are providing a genuinely 'value-added' service.

What are your views on 0870 contact numbers for business that you use? I am referring to insurance companies, banks, travel agencies, government offices and so on. Do you find it acceptable that you have to call such a number? The thread title is NGN charges - get real!, so does this mean you are happy to pay 0870 rates whenever any person or company gives you an 0870 number?

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tripleeight

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Re: NGN charges - get real!
Reply #22 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 5:25pm

I don't have a problem with businesses using 087/084 numbers:

1) My Sky+ remote control packed up this morning. I had to ring Sky on 08702424242 to get a replacement remote control organised. I was in a Q for about two minutes before my call was answered by a person, then we spent around 15 minutes doing various resets and tests before it was agreed that a new one needed to be despatched. I couldn't have cared less that I had to pay 8p a minute from my BT landline...it was a higher priority to get the problem resolved.

2) I also had to phone Coop Visa on 08456006000, concerning a card dispute. That call lasted nearly 40 minutes before the matter was resolved. In this instance I wasn't bothered that I had to ring an 0845 number...it, again, was a higher priority to get the problem resolved.

Regards

Regards

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: NGN charges - get real!
Reply #23 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 7:50pm

tripleeight wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 11:23pm:

My own POV is that it is a myth. As stated elsewhere, I receive calls from abroad without any problem.

redtreble, tripleight.........................................

You honestly expect us to believe these are different people. Roll Eyes

Pull the other one. Aren't you just Operations Director wearing yet another hat.

I refer to the honourable gentleman to the answers I have provided in the RedTreble thread.

www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1134491343/15

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« Last Edit: Dec 14^th, 2005 at 7:51pm by N/A »

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Shiggaddi

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Re: NGN charges - get real!
Reply #24 - Dec 18^th, 2005 at 11:50pm

I've been doing loads of overtime this week, so only now able to add my 2pence worth into this argument!!

I agree, getting your Sky service fixed, and disputing a transaction on your credit card are important, and at least you don't mind getting ripped off, and paying extra for the call.

But your argument saying that you won't pay to receive calls from banks and telemarketing needs the following solution!! How about giving them a landline number (or 0870 if you want) and return the call when you get the time. It works with me.

And as for diverting your calls to your mobile, and saying that it will cost loads more and put people off. If someone has a mobile on 3, T mobile etc with inclusive minutes anytime any network, then the call to the landline will come from inclusive minutes, the call to your mobile will come from inclusive minutes, but the call to 0870 numbers will be charged at a premium. Surely you don't want your close friends and family to incur this expense.

And why not give out a mobile number for your business contacts, or give out your landline number and expect to return calls later that day. BT and other operators do have the basic technology to provide domestic customers at only a few quid a month a voicemail service where you can retrieve your messages from another phone, and not even need to wait till you get home. You could check on the hour or something.

And as for the printing of new cards and stationary. How did you manage when you decided to start using an 0870 number? Surely this enormous cost would have made it uneconimical to have ever considered switching your landline number to 0870, or has the cost of printing gone up considerably in the last few years.

Anyway, if you like being ripped off so much, why did you bother disputing the card transaction with the Co-op, surely in the spirit of people who like 0870 numbers you don't mind people helping themselves to your money!!

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I realy hait itt wen peeple canot spel proply. Itt getts onn mye nervs sew mutch annd streses mee owt. Knot onley iz itt vary bade speling butt allso bade gramer.

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Dave

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Re: NGN charges - get real!
Reply #25 - Dec 19^th, 2005 at 12:49am

tripleeight wrote on Dec 14^th, 2005 at 5:25pm:

I don't have a problem with businesses using 087/084 numbers:

1) My Sky+ remote control packed up this morning. I had to ring Sky on 08702424242 [...] I couldn't have cared less that I had to pay 8p a minute from my BT landline...it was a higher priority to get the problem resolved.

2) I also had to phone Coop Visa on 08456006000, concerning a card dispute. That call lasted nearly 40 minutes before the matter was resolved. In this instance I wasn't bothered that I had to ring an 0845 number...it, again, was a higher priority to get the problem resolved.

So you think that paying more automatically gets you better service?

Therefore, it follows that you would be concerned that any company offering you a freephone number (one for which they pay for) provides a poorer service because you aren't paying extra. Shocked

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NonGeographicalMan Ex Member	Re: NGN charges - get real! Reply #26 - Dec 19^th, 2005 at 1:33am It seems to me we have scored something of a Bullseye in our responses to Redtreble/Tripleeight since I notice that he has lately chosen not to throw any further postings on our forum darts boad. A case of One Hundred and Eighty to the forum regulars perhaps
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Shiggaddi

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Re: NGN charges - get real!
Reply #27 - Dec 19^th, 2005 at 2:33pm

Quote:

It seems to me we have scored something of a Bullseye in our responses to Redtreble/Tripleeight since I notice that he has lately chosen not to throw any further postings on our forum darts boad. Wink

A case of One Hundred and Eighty to the forum regulars perhaps Grin

I think he's enjoying watching his Sky TV, with his new remote control, lol!!

Or he's come round to our way of thinking and is redesigning his business cards which now give a geographic and mobile number!!

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I realy hait itt wen peeple canot spel proply. Itt getts onn mye nervs sew mutch annd streses mee owt. Knot onley iz itt vary bade speling butt allso bade gramer.

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andy9

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Re: NGN charges - get real!
Reply #28 - Dec 19^th, 2005 at 4:40pm

tripleeight wrote on Dec 14^th, 2005 at 5:25pm:

I don't have a problem with businesses using 087/084 numbers:

1) My Sky+ remote control packed up this morning. I had to ring Sky on ~~. I couldn't have cared less that I had to pay 8p a minute from my BT landline...it was a higher priority to get the problem resolved.

2) I also had to phone Coop Visa on 08456006000, concerning a card dispute. That call lasted nearly 40 minutes before the matter was resolved. In this instance I wasn't bothered that I had to ring an 0845 number...it, again, was a higher priority to get the problem resolved.

Quite apart from running counter to the main vein of opinion on the forum, which is your perogative, you appear unwilling to use the site's other facilities.

If you had chosen examples which have no alternative known numbers, then your expediency argument would apply, but this simply doesn't make sense. Why is it better to pay £1.20 for the Co-op Visa conversation than 3p?

Or don't you bother with any cheap call providers either? In which case I'm at a loss as to what it was that attracted you here.

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PennyMunn Newbie Offline Posts: 4	Re: NGN charges - get real! Reply #29 - Aug 31^st, 2006 at 12:22am If the amount of money taken in revenue is very small, then you won't mind this practice being outlawed, will you?
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