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SAYNOTO0870.COM › Main Forum › Geographical Numbers Chat › Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense!

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Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense! (Read 42,235 times)

idb

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Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense!
Reply #15 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 1:08am

longusername wrote on Dec 14^th, 2005 at 12:54am:

http://www.bankofamerica.com/deposits/checksave/index.cfm?template=contact_us

It contains the contact us page for the Bank of America for current accountholders. According to Forbes the Bank of America was the 6th largest company in the US in 2003. You will assume with me, I hope, that its call centres are much in demand. They are large. The high quality of service provided by this highly successful bank (and I can personally assure you that, in keeping with most US customer service it surpasses anything you will likely be used to in the UK --I lived there for ten years) will, by your logic only be capable of support by higher call charges. But all the numbers provided are 800 numbers, free to the caller in the US, with the single exception of a 206 dialling code, which is a non-revenue-sharing geographic number for Seattle. How do you explain that? Look around at your sister services being offered as we speak across the Atlantic in economies which do not collapse, but which in fact take the 800 numbers to be the very expression of the quality of service that is your concern, and you will see that there is no trade-off between good service and cheap calls, instead they are directly proportional. Indeed, it is not that paying more means better service; rather charging more constitutes worse service.

You make some very good points, and, as a BOA customer, I totally agree - the customer service of this, and indeed almost any US bank is so far ahead of anything within the UK. Calls answered quickly, helpful staff and no premium number. Banks will simply not survive here if they offer lousy service as competition is so intensive.

On my way to work this morning, I drove past a truck operated by a small business selling produce (fruit and veg for UK readers). It had a 561 area code, which is Palm Beach County region, and, for those living within the north of the county, any call would generally be 'free' (bundled within the call plan). Nothing remarkable about that. However the van also advertised a toll-free 800 number, presumably for those outside north county and within the wider Miami/FT Lauderdale/West Palm Beach Metro area, and indeed anyone from the fifty states. This is a small business, presumably employing a handful of people. It knows the value of cutomer service. It knows how important it is. It actually pays a small amount to receive calls to its toll-free number. In the UK, there are large corporations plus HMG using numbers that cost the caller five quid per hour. Now who places more emphasis on customer service - is it the produce business, or is it someone like Sky, Dell or the Home Office?

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.

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idb

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Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense!
Reply #16 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 1:15am

Redtreble wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 4:29pm:

Have you ever actually stopped to think that maybe 0870 is giving you good value as consumers?

Yes, I stopped and thought about it. I looked at the costs, and decided that any organization charging me, in my money, almost $8 per hour to make a customer service call, is not good value, especially when I could call New Zealand and dozens of other countries for significantly less. I suspect most of the UK public would agree that 0870 is certainly not good value! I then stopped thinking about it and concentrated my efforts into stopping the scam.

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.

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lavillegour Newbie Offline We'll All Be Dead in 100 Years ! Posts: 25	Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense! Reply #17 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 4:07pm Bloody 'ell !............ Take That
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lavillegour Newbie Offline We'll All Be Dead in 100 Years ! Posts: 25	Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense! Reply #18 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 4:12pm Take That !............ Bloody 'ell longusername is it a no brainer or are you a two brainer ?
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NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense!
Reply #19 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 4:43pm

Redtreble wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 5:34pm:

I totally agree with your point about local and national rate as definitions. There hasn't been a link for years, if ever, and in the response that I helped compile to the consulation, I made just this very point to Ofcom. The use of the terms national rate and local rate is an anachronism in this day of flat rate calls and optic networks. But that doesn't justify the abolition of revenue share though does it? It screams to me that Ofcom need to sort out the issue of defining just what an 08 call is.

The point I was making before is valid here. If Ofcom decide to abolish revenue share on 0870, then most companies are simply going to migrate to other tariffs anyway, so what on earth will be achieved? Especially as we all know that the migration will be to higher tariffs

Let us be clear most people don't propose that NTS revenue share calls to call centres should be made completely illegal (although there is a view this should be the case where the supplier is a natural monopoly like a government department, local council or water company) but just that the disgraceful 084/7 "its just a ordinary local or just an ordinary national rate call sir" lie which cynical and double talking management types like you in all these big call centres either negligently (unlikely given the battery hen like methods used to control and monitor your staff) or far more likely deliberately and dishonestly allow all their customer service operatives to use this stock response to any customer who dares to complain about the use of 084/7 numbers"

This site is not just against 0870 it is against all 084/7 scams which rely on the false linkage to BT local and national rate (still perpetuated to this very day by none other than BT at its main website sellling 084/7 numbers to business customers and still perpetuated on every BT phone bill where the abusive terms Lo-Call and Local Rate are used for 0845 numbers and National Rate for 0870 numbers).

Have all the revenue share that you want but make sure its all on 09 prefixed numbers with clear call price announcements and clear announcements in all newspaper and radio and web advertising. Then the market will operate and the customer will make an informed choice about whether to call and know how much he is paying.

We don't want the scam transferred across to 0871. We want all revenue share activities on 08 abolished and all 08 revenue sharers to have to move to 09. Although as a realist I can see that ICSTIS is an expensive regulator so I would allow the low price revenue share to be on 06 with no ICSTIS control up to 15p per minute but with full price publication disclosure requirements. And I would move all the geographic 0845 and 0870 to 0345 and 0370 which are included in inclusive 01/02 calling plans. Other members of this site are not so generous as me. They say move all revenue share to 09 full stop. No half measures.

Of course there are scams on credit cards but its a free market with no disgraceful big lie like 084/7 is local/national rate. Although there is a fairly disgraceful scam called "foreign exchange rate levy" at 2.65% and cash withdrawal fees of 1.5% to 2% on top with a £2 minimum. As a free market citizen though I now have a Nationwide Visa credit and debit card and use them for all my overseas currency transactions.

084/7 is a disgrace because it relies on conning the customers "that its just a local/national rate call sir" and most of the calls are actually often necessary due to the incompetence and cynicism of many big companies towards their customers and the lousy and inefficient billing and ordering systems they use.

So its all Just a small problem complained about by a few cranks is it (although 1,000 of these cranks have made a submission to Ofcom at the last count), we all have nothing better to do etc. Just a few pence per minute is it? No NTS is a £1.5 billion industry constituting 25%+ of uk calls. It is a cancer against free market competition in the whole uk telephone network and a major structural impediment in the move to making calls via Voip.

You have been rumbled we know your game. Please stop trying to patronise us or assume that we are imbeciles here.

By the way please provide a link to your response to NTS Way Forward. I would be interested to read it and to know which bunch of 084/7 scam merchants you work for.

« Last Edit: Dec 14^th, 2005 at 4:47pm by N/A »

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NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense!
Reply #20 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 4:58pm

Redtreble wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 5:40pm:

And I'll re-state my key message. If the companies in question provided you with an 01 or an 02 number, do you still believe that they wouldn't find a way of making you as the customer, pay for funding the call centre? A point people on here seem happy to ignore...

The other ways of charging the customer would be in a competitive marketplace not subject to a big lie. And while we are on the subject yes I object to all those other big company scams like charging £20 for a late credit card payment that you then earn interest on. This is not competition it is extortion because there has been a cartel amongst all the big companies to introduce such rip offs tigether. And the regulators in this country are weak and puny beings who generally opt for a quiet life instead of battling on the consumer's behalf.

Low cost NTS is hugely inefficient because out of 7.51p per minute the call centre gets no more than 4p (usually a lot less). These numbers are mainly an anti competitive bean feast for the telecoms companies to try to stop the huge fall off in all their 01/02 geographic revenues.

You don't like taking calls or think it drives up prices to the customer? Well fine be honest that you charge for all support but charge a flat rate like 50p or £1 per query however long the call. Then you won't have an incentive to employ Indians "who oh most speakka summa da Inglish sire" but with whom it is frequently impossible to hold an intelligible conversation.

And hang on what happened about running call centres up to 1997 before NTS then? Didn't most companies still all manage to afford to run them. Face up to it NTS is the unacceptable side of uk big business.

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense!
Reply #21 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 5:07pm

Redtreble wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 7:13pm:

* I asterisked this because I'd be interested to know what all of you complaining about 0870 charges feel about mobile providers. If you haven't an opinion, try making a FREEPHONE call from your mobile phone and see how free it really is. Or try calling a £1.50 PRS number and see how much you get charged. My point is, that of all the pricing issues that the UK telecoms market has, 0870 is one of the lesser ones IMO.

Premium Rate calling to 0800 on mobile phone is within the objectives of campaigners on this site.

It all happens because the incompetent regulator doesn't require clear pence per minute announcements of all non standard non 01 and 02 call prices and doesn't force these other higher rates to be presented as prominently in advertising. Clear price disclosure is basic to the free market. Imagine the outrage at the supermarket till if you only found out what things had cost after you had paid the bill at the checkout. NTS is a gangster industry that relies on blatant lieing and deceipt. Face the Facts.

Your argument seems to be that two wrongs make a right. Face the facts Operations Director. Wink

« Last Edit: Dec 14^th, 2005 at 5:22pm by N/A »

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bbb_uk

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Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense!
Reply #22 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 5:11pm

As mentioned in previous posts, these numbers are conning most of the ordinary consumers and businesses because they are still thought of as local/national. As you cleary admit this needs to be corrected but ofcom have spent over 2 years (i think) on this issue and it looks like its going to take another 6+ months.

You say that companies will move to 0871 then assuming ofcom put this number under ICSTIS remit then this wont be so bad (not ideal though) simply because call charging whilst in the queue for 20+ mins (as reported in the press by some companies/gov departments) would not cost us anything and only when we get to speak to a human will we be charged, plus they would have to advertise the cost of the numbers and possibly even remind people when they answer the phone to us just how much we are paying.

A lot of companies that make huge profits already but still continue to use 0870 and get away with it simply because many consumers are not aware of the fact that it is, despite how it is worded by ofcom, a stealth premium rate number. Sky are one company that comes to mind. Look up the word premium rate in the dictionary and it clearly states it anything charged extra on top of what it would/should normally be. Therefore by the definition of the dictionary, 0845/0870 are premium rate numbers simply because they are charged far more (in some cases) than ordinary calls (ie geographical rates) and revenue sharing exists on them.

What about BA? They have an 0870 for UK customers but for the US they operate a freephone number. How can they operate a freephone number in the states but not in the UK, or at the very least, operate a normal geographical number? Apart from it being a 'rip-off Britain' issue again, the main reason is that in the UK it has become common practice to charge us more than normal for a service they operate free or at normal rates in other countries.

I believe you are wrong when you say that many people wouldn't care less if it is a premium rate number or not a company is using. Take this scenario:-

Two companies are in direct competition with each other and both sell their identical products at the same price to us consumers but one operates a 09x number that costs the exact same price as an 0870. The other company operates just an 0870.

Now this would mean that going by call charges both charge exactly the same for their contact number but I'm sure you would agree that because most consumers aren't actually aware that 0870 is a (stealth) premium rate number (albeit small compared to some 09x numbers) so therefore they are more likely to ring the company operating the 0870 even though the other company operating the 09x number is the same price but is likely to be cheaper because call queuing isn't allowed.

This scenario could be used again but this time one company operates a normal geographical number and the other company operates the 09x number (but charged at exactly the same rates as an 0870). Now which company is likely to get more business? The company operating the normal geographical because many consumers are aware that 09x numbers are premium rate where the portions of the call charge is passed on to the end company.

Your view that ringing premium rate makes no difference because people ring competitions, etc is flawled simply because we may ring these competitions at the premium rate prices simply because there is no other choice but to ring them and pay the premium rate price. If we were given a choice and could ring a premium rate number or a normal number to enter for a competition then do you think that people would still ring the premium rate number?

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense!
Reply #23 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 5:22pm

Redtreble wrote on Dec 13^th, 2005 at 5:34pm:

I'm not sure I understand your point about lack of competition. There's loads of telcos out there, plenty of tariffs to choose from, lots of different companies in every industry that have call centres.....

That seems to be calls to 01, 02 and overseas numbers you are talking about.

For 084/7 there is almost no price competition for the uk consumer as the uncertainties to the call originator over how much he may have to pay over to the TCP are such that a discount carrier offering very low rates either wants to have no truck with NTS numbers or if they do connect to them they have to charge a massive call rate that ensures they always make a profit regardless.

Thus BT is the cheapest provider of any significance for 084 and 087 calls. All its major competitors charge more. Whereas quite the reverse is true for 01/02 calls.

Something wrong somewhere surely? Shocked

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saynonto0871 Newbie Offline Posts: 26 UK Gender:	Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense! Reply #24 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 6:45pm Maybe one of the few good leaves we can take out of the USA's book is that they generally have 1-800 toll free call centre access. The company pays for your contact. You have bought their product/paid for their service, why should you then have to pay above normal rates to talk to them?
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NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense!
Reply #25 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 7:07pm

saynonto0871 wrote on Dec 14^th, 2005 at 6:45pm:

Maybe one of the few good leaves we can take out of the USA's book is that they generally have 1-800 toll free call centre access. The company pays for your contact. You have bought their product/paid for their service, why should you then have to pay above normal rates to talk to them?

Talking to the customer provides another opportunity to sell the customer some other product and/or leave him generally more delighted with the company so that he renews his/her policy or whatever the next time.

The problem with the uk model is that they regard the post sales customer as some sort of hapless moron to be exploited in every which way and from whom they preferably don't ever want to hear again (deterrence against the customer calling again being another peculiarly negative British reason for having an 0870 number aside from bleeding dry the suckers who do still call). There seems to be no acceptance in this country that customer retention through good post sales service and 0800 numbers is a cheaper model than constant customer churn caused by the "screw the existing customer" and get a new one British model. That is why 0800 calls combined with far higher customer retention rates that means less very costly new sales activity is a more efficient business model.

And as for 0870 being so as to afford to keep British jobs and not outsource them to India well do me a favour but practically all the Indian call centres are actually on the 0870 numbers (because inevitably only the most cynical companies who treat their customers with utter contempt outsource the call centre to people who cannot often even communicate effectively with the customer). Take HP (Hewlett Packard) who I have had to talk to for about two and a half hours on the phone in the last week in about 4 different calls about a failed notebook pc battery (that they still haven't delivered a replacement for 5 days after the problem was diagnosed in spite of them being readily buyable for cash on overnight delivery on internet PC spares sites). Now as it happens it has only cost me about 21p of 3p calls calling their main switchboard number (allowing for various female operators in India who couldn't even manage to key a serial number into a PC terminal correctly and who I had to give up on) but if it had cost me £11 of phone calls too I would be even more livid with the company. Also in a healthy marketplace the difference in phone call costs beween the cheapest and most expensive method of routing a call ought to be about 50% at most. For it to be in the order of more like a 4000% price difference shows that the telecoms market is sick and that certain channels are making monopoly profits by exploiting captive customers.

If they really want to charge for after sales PC support then make us buy a support contract that charges per issue fixed (not by the time the call lasted which only gives the company an incentive to employ incompetent staff on low wages) and only charges when it is fixed with there being no charge if they fail to resolve the problem and/or financial penalties for failing to fix it. And do all this on a normal geographic phone number where the market dictates the call price and not the call centre who is trying to charge me through the nose while hoping that I won't be aware of it.

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NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense!
Reply #26 - Dec 14^th, 2005 at 7:10pm

What has happened to Redtreble. Perhaps he has belatedly twigged that we aren't all the typical dumb saps who call his shiny big call centre and that unfortunately for him he can't pull the wool over our eyes.

Still I'm sure it would be interesting to read his company's submission to Ofcom, if only he would provide us with the link. Wink

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longusername Newbie Offline Posts: 40	Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense! Reply #27 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 6:45pm Quote: What has happened to Redtreble. Maybe he just thought is was all a load of nonsense.
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NonGeographicalMan

Ex Member

Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense!
Reply #28 - Dec 15^th, 2005 at 7:09pm

longusername wrote on Dec 15^th, 2005 at 6:45pm:

Quote:

What has happened to Redtreble.

Maybe he just thought is was all a load of nonsense. Sad

May be he suddenly realised that he had been rumbled and that we weren't as easy to fool as the dumb saps who call up him and his colleagues on 0870 all day long. Now do you suppose that Redtreble and Tripleeight may in fact by any chance perhaps be related? Wink

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DesG

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Re: Abolish 0870? What a load of nonsense!
Reply #29 - Dec 16^th, 2005 at 12:48pm

saynonto0871 wrote on Dec 14^th, 2005 at 6:45pm:

MBNA credit cards use 0800 numbers in the UK, obviously as they are an American company they hadn't twigged that they should have a shiney 0870 number to abuse their customers.

They also provide a geographic number for you to reverse the call charge to them if you are ringing them from abroad, now that is impressive!

I of course ring them on their geographic number from the UK so they don't have to pay for my 0800 call.

Cheers, Des.

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