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GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire) (Read 946,308 times)
Heinz
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #75 - Dec 8th, 2011 at 1:15pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Dec 7th, 2011 at 9:53am:
I am not sure that I could condone spray-painting an alternative number on the outside walls of a surgery, in areas where perhaps that would be the normal way of spreading a message to the local community, but it is for each to act in its own way.

Neither would I.

However, sitting in the surgery waiting for an appointment is an ideal time to insert a few A5 flyers of a surgery's real number (if known) or of a means by which complaints can be made into a few magazines or newspapers.
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« Last Edit: Dec 8th, 2011 at 1:23pm by Heinz »  

After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #76 - Dec 8th, 2011 at 2:44pm
 
bazzerfewi wrote on Dec 8th, 2011 at 7:53am:
... is it a criminal offence or a civil offence or may be none of the above.

Many may be interested to read the following outline of the situation as I understand it.


The general terms under which GPs provide NHS services are found in the terms of a civil contract between them and the PCT. These terms are set by parliament and were varied in 2010.

Since April 2010, a contractor has not been permitted to arrange to use a telephone number "unless it is satisfied that, having regard to the arrangement as a whole, persons will not pay more to make relevant calls to the practice than they would to make equivalent calls to a geographical number".

Where an arrangement that fails this test was already in place, contractors are required to "take all reasonable steps" including consideration of "varying the terms of the contract or arrangement", so as "to ensure that, having regard to the arrangement as a whole, persons will not pay any more to make relevant calls to the practice than they would to make equivalent calls to a geographical number".


This variation is a simple prohibition of use of expensive numbers, except where a telephone service provider would not allow variation of the terms of their contract on reasonable terms. Stipulations about the facilities for contact with a practice that must be offered are doubtless contained elsewhere in the terms of the NHS GP contracts - I have not looked, as I cannot imagine any GP not offering telephone contact.

There is no requirement to provide alternative numbers, because there is no number that can be used which requires an alternative. Provision of an alternative number that offered the same access as that currently available on a 084 number would be considered to be a suitable variation to the terms of the contract or arrangement. If this were done then there is no reason why the expensive number should continue to be used! (This can become something of a circular argument, as it comes down to asking why one needs an expensive alternative to a geographic number.)

There is no reason why a practice could not consider offering alternative geographic rate numbers, that offered alternative access to the practice, in the event that they were unable to vary their arrangements on reasonable terms. I have however not yet seen any evidence of a case where the obvious variation (migration to 03) is not available on reasonable terms. It is standard industry practice to offer such migration at any time and without penalty.

If, or when, I see evidence of any deviation from this standard, I will be able to draw attention to this meddling in the terms of the NHS by a commercial organisation. Such political interference is not illegal, but neither would it be illegal to draw attention to it, given that the evidence was sound and properly obtained.

I believe that any PCT which has accepted a claim that a practice has considered varying its arrangements, but found that this cannot be done on reasonable terms, should be holding this evidence. It needs to do so to protect its own position.


The relevant legal remedies that I am aware of are as follows:
  • A PCT may take action against a contracted GP for a breach of the terms of their contract. There is a procedure to be followed, but the case could eventually end up in a civil court.
  • There are doubtless many ways in which the duties of a PCT are defined in statute. Most recently, there has been added an obligation to have regard to the NHS Constitution. Any failure by a public body to perform its functions properly is open to "Judicial Review". If a large number of lawyers were prepared to offer their services to the cause on a pro bono basis, then this could be worth considering.

Preparation of the NHS Constitution was seen by some as the perfect opportunity to lay out the rights of patients in a form that could be directly enforceable in law by a patient against the provider of a NHS service. Both government and opposition at the time recognised that it was lawyers who were at the head of the group arguing for such action, and were concerned about the legal costs that could be faced by both NHS bodies and independent providers in defending themselves against actions being brought by claims companies.

For myself, I regret the fact that we do not have a "Constitution", in the sense in which the term is generally understood, however I see that this is tied in with a wider issue concerning legal processes that needs to be resolved. The rights are declared in the NHS Constitution, however we are reliant on them being treated with a sufficient degree of importance by officers of the NHS, as there is no simple legal mechanism by which they may be enforced.

I am sure that other legal avenues will be considered. I have only addressed those which I see as being currently relevant. I would be delighted to learn of other legal processes that could be usefully engaged, in addition to the procedural and PR avenues that are already being followed.
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loddon
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #77 - Dec 10th, 2011 at 5:21pm
 
It has been mentioned in earlier posts on this thread that the Wokingham Times story about  Brookside Group Practice, Earley NAG, NHS Berkshire West and an illegitimate 0844 phone number has been reproduced on the GetWokingham website ----

http://www.getwokingham.co.uk/news/s/2104544_scrap_premium_rate_numbers_for_surg...

It has been drawn to my attention that there is a "poll" on that page asking "Is it right for GP surgeries to use 0844 numbers?"

Interesting result so far is that 95% say "No, they should use local numbers."
That is 95%   Smiley

Other readers of this Forum might like to look at the Poll and vote their opinion on this matter.   The Poll is found at the foot of the right hand column below various links and adverts.   It is also possible to leave comments on the Poll as well as the main story.
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devon jack
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #78 - Dec 13th, 2011 at 6:43pm
 
Our Health Centre has just (5 Dec 2011) introduced an 0844 number (see http://www.wallingbrook.co.uk/) and this is the only way to contact the surgery or dispensary. They don't even display any email addresses on their website.
I've complained to NHS Devon and they are looking into it. Any suggestions how to get it changed back to a geographic number? As I have a BT all inclusive calls contract then it will cost me to phone them rather than being part of my BT free calls.
I also gather that if they call you back then there is also a charge to the patient, but not proved that yet.
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« Last Edit: Dec 17th, 2011 at 10:07pm by Dave »  
 
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sherbert
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #79 - Dec 13th, 2011 at 7:11pm
 
I have found this number

01769 580 269

I have no idea if it still works. It is worth a try and if it does, please let us know.

Thanks
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« Last Edit: Dec 17th, 2011 at 10:07pm by Dave »  
 
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devon jack
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #80 - Dec 13th, 2011 at 7:21pm
 
sherbert wrote on Dec 13th, 2011 at 7:11pm:
I have found this number

01769 580 269

I have no idea if it still works. It is worth a try and if it does, please let us know.


no - you just get a recorded message telling you the number has changed and to call the 0844 number



~ Edited by Dave: Link added to quote box
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« Last Edit: Mar 2nd, 2012 at 8:54pm by Dave »  
 
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sherbert
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Re: Surgeries saying no to 0844!
Reply #81 - Dec 13th, 2011 at 8:02pm
 
oh well, it was worth a try.

However, you could always email them from here


http://www.wallingbrook.co.uk/p5419.html?a=0

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« Last Edit: Dec 13th, 2011 at 8:07pm by sherbert »  
 
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kasg
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #82 - Dec 14th, 2011 at 10:25am
 
devon jack wrote on Dec 13th, 2011 at 6:43pm:
Our Health Centre has just (5 Dec 2011) introduced an 0844 number (see http://www.wallingbrook.co.uk/) and this is the only way to contact the surgery or dispensary. They don't even display any email addresses on their website.
I've complained to NHS Devon and they are looking into it. Any suggestions how to get it changed back to a geographic number? As I have a BT all inclusive calls contract then it will cost me to phone them rather than being part of my BT free calls.
I also gather that if they call you back then there is also a charge to the patient, but not proved that yet.
Well done for complaining, I look forward to the response. I find it absolutely staggering that practices are even now introducing 0844 numbers, long after this was effectively banned, and compounding it by including nonsense like "Calls will be charged at LOCAL RATE. Calls from mobiles may be higher or lower depending on the network provider" alongside the new number. What planet are they on?
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« Last Edit: Dec 17th, 2011 at 10:08pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #83 - Dec 14th, 2011 at 11:29am
 
devon jack wrote on Dec 13th, 2011 at 7:21pm:
Quote:
I have found this number

01769 580 269

I have no idea if it still works. It is worth a try and if it does, please let us know.


no - you just get a recorded message telling you the number has changed and to call the 0844 number





Report them to the ASA here:-
http://www.asa.org.uk/Complaints/How-to-complain/Online-Form/Step1.aspx

The ASA are responsible for policing websites and will make them remove the misleading wording.

Complaint to your local PCT should continue.

.
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« Last Edit: Dec 17th, 2011 at 10:09pm by Dave »  
 
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Keith
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #84 - Dec 15th, 2011 at 2:32pm
 
Just a note to everyone re a campaign I'm waging in Surrey. For the last 9 months (ish) I have been in communication with the PCT. The exchange of emails is at the 50 odd level with some detailed correspondence.

At times you want to bang your head against the wall with the sheer lack of progress and the snails pace of response, but occasionally you do feel that progress is being made.

I would just like to note here thanks to SCV who has been supporting me in my efforts.
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devon jack
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #85 - Dec 15th, 2011 at 10:19pm
 
devon jack wrote on Dec 13th, 2011 at 6:43pm:
Our Health Centre has just (5 Dec 2011) introduced an 0844 number (see http://www.wallingbrook.co.uk/) and this is the only way to contact the surgery or dispensary. They don't even display any email addresses on their website.
I've complained to NHS Devon and they are looking into it. Any suggestions how to get it changed back to a geographic number? As I have a BT all inclusive calls contract then it will cost me to phone them rather than being part of my BT free calls.
I also gather that if they call you back then there is also a charge to the patient, but not proved that yet.

Well done for complaining, I look forward to the response. I find it absolutely staggering that practices are even now introducing 0844 numbers, long after this was effectively banned, and compounding it by including nonsense like "Calls will be charged at LOCAL RATE. Calls from mobiles may be higher or lower depending on the network provider" alongside the new number. What planet are they on?
The PCT is investigating our health centre and have told them to produce definitive proof after one month that the claim that patients pay no more than calling a geographic number is true. They will now also include references to "inclusive calls" deals where calls are effectively prepaid for 01/02/03.
I got an info sheet today which states (literally, including the obvious grammatical errors provided by NEG)
"Patients calling surgery line from a BT landline pay no more than the cost of calling an equivalent geographic number, other providers may charge differently. Calls from mobile may vary please contact your mobile operator for more detail"
I think that is an admission that if not using a BT landline then the calls are more expensive!!
Another aspect I read today is that when using "Surgery Line" from NEG, the patient doesn't get an engaged tone - ie is charged for hanging on when nobody can take the call, instead of just hanging up at no charge and calling again later.



~ Edited by Dave: Link added to quote box
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« Last Edit: Mar 2nd, 2012 at 8:55pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #86 - Dec 15th, 2011 at 11:22pm
 
Well done devon jack for getting something in hardcopy from NEG - how did you manage that - any literature that can be obtained from NEG/Daisy on Surgery line is gold dust - they are so cocky they will hang themselves sooner or later - lets hope one of Us is around to grab it, and pull the noose tighter  Grin
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« Last Edit: Dec 17th, 2011 at 10:10pm by Dave »  
 
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #87 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 8:51am
 
speedy wrote on Dec 15th, 2011 at 11:22pm:
Well done devon jack for getting something in hardcopy from NEG - how did you manage that - any literature that can be obtained from NEG/Daisy on Surgery line is gold dust - they are so cocky they will hang themselves sooner or later - lets hope one of Us is around to grab it, and pull the noose tighter  Grin

Well done devon jack for all of your efforts.

The practice has itself admitted to a breach of contract by declaring on its website that:

Quote:
Calls from mobiles may be higher

It thereby clearly shows that it has not achieved the satisfaction that it is required to achieve, as follows:

Quote:
The Contractor shall not enter into, renew or extend a contract or other arrangement for telephone services unless it is satisfied that, having regard to the arrangement as a whole, persons will not pay more to make relevant calls to the practice than they would to make equivalent calls to a geographical number.


Any spurious doubt that may have been raised as to the meaning of "the arrangement as a whole" or "relevant calls", was dispelled by a recent statement from the Health Minister.

Quote:
there is no distinction between landlines, mobiles or payphones ... patients should not expect to be charged any more

The minister could have added a further point by explaining that the charge for a telephone call is always set by the provider of telephone service to the caller. The spurious suggestion that GPs or their agents can somehow control the relative cost of geographic and non-geographic calls from landlines must never be entertained.



For those interested in the views of NEG on relevant topics, I can offer a number of links. Here are three for now:

1) A standard letter used to express its contrary opinions on how the terms of the revisions to the NHS GP contracts should be interpreted. This includes the incredible (to some) claim that "Surgery Line" enjoys the endorsement of the Department of Health, implying that any telephone number used with Surgery Line must be OK!

2) A news article in which NEG is quoted as claiming that the cost of calling from mobiles is not covered by the GP contract because it is "impossible" to set the cost. This disregards the fact that it is equally impossible for NEG or any GP to set or pre-determine the relative cost of a geographic / 084 call made through BT or any other landline call provider.

I comment on the further extraordinary statement from NEG in the article that it is undesirable for the costs of providing NHS services to be met by taxpayers. If NEG is fundamentally opposed to the principles of the NHS, then we know who we are dealing with.

3) I comment on the latest publication covering "Daisy" Surgery Line.



We are perhaps in the wrong thread for discussing Surgeries that are not saying 'No' to 0844, however I will add one further comment.

Members have discussed use of the Comments feature on NHS Choices to express dissatisfaction with surgeries using 084 numbers.

I have collected a sample of such comments and published them here.

There is no ready mechanism for keeping a log or feed of all such comments or for obtaining a meaningful general indication of the degree of dissatisfaction. Comments are "tagged", however there can be no assurance that relevant comments will be tagged with the word "telephone" - many of those quoted were not!

Ministers are keen for increased emphasis to be put on the "commenting" mechanism, although I have severe concerns and doubts about the propriety and validity of this approach in general. I cannot however deny that these comments offer a potentially useful campaigning resource, not least by the falsehoods and admissions of breach of contract that are seen in the responses by practices.
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« Last Edit: Dec 17th, 2011 at 10:09pm by Dave »  
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Dave
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #88 - Dec 16th, 2011 at 3:16pm
 
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Re: GPs all over England (not just in South Yorkshire)
Reply #89 - Dec 17th, 2011 at 4:08pm
 
I have contacted Dan Jarvis, yet again in regard to Doctors Surgeries "Premium Rate Numbers" and send him the latest article that has been posted.

He says he is here to serve the people of Barnsley, but he hasn't made any headway in regard to the GP campaign

He will give up before I do!!!
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