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Unsolicited reverse charge billing (Read 29,875 times)
Shiggaddi
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Re: Unsolicited reverse charge billing
Reply #15 - Jan 31st, 2006 at 4:55pm
 
The other day, I received the cheque that was promised, and it has now been put into my bank account.

The letter had a Canadian franked postmark on it.

Also the letter again said "Thankyou for using PC Modding services, we're sorry you didn't find our program useful"

It has now costed them between 10-20 times the amount that they made in profit from the text (taking account of the fact that not all £1.50 goes to them, and the cost of admin, and posting of 2 cheques)

This means they need at least 20 people who don't complain about these texts for them to make a profit, so if more people took a stand to companies such as zim, then maybe they wouldn't send out so many unsolicited texts.

Vodafone and Zim have already agreed that the only way I could have received the text, is to send a text in the first place to agree that I would receive a reverse charge text.  I never sent any such text, so how I could have been sent such a text in the first place, can only be down to incompetence, or scamming, but either way, they haven't dared sending any more!!
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I realy hait itt wen peeple canot spel proply. Itt getts onn mye nervs sew mutch annd streses mee owt. Knot onley iz itt vary bade speling butt allso bade gramer.
 
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NFH
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Re: Unsolicited reverse charge billing
Reply #16 - Jan 31st, 2006 at 8:20pm
 
Shiggaddi wrote on Jan 9th, 2006 at 12:12am:
A very good point about Vodafone being liable.


It certainly is a good point. I have had the same problem with Orange, and Orange equally try to wash their hands of the problem. Legally, the mobile network is liable, as you have a contract with the mobile network, not with the scammer. Next time this happens to me and Orange refuses to refund the scammed charge, I shall issue Orange with a summons via www.moneyclaim.gov.uk and I'm sure they'll pay up very quickly, plus the £30 court fee. If enough people did this, the mobile networks would scale down reverse-charge SMS very quickly.
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Flutty
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Re: Unsolicited reverse charge billing
Reply #17 - Jan 31st, 2006 at 8:30pm
 
Good for you getting the refund, despite promises from O2 after much emailing and calling, no refund has ever appeared for me and now they deny the emails they sent me. They say that the person dealing has left the company and that is an end to the matter. Standard email in fact, as the same spelling mistakes appeared again. I am afraid it is another 0870 type scam, not many people are going to take it via the small claims, not for say £10.
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Flutty
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Re: Unsolicited reverse charge billing
Reply #18 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 2:09pm
 
I suspect that a lot of people will have had 84010 unsolicited text messages on the 31st March this year. Looking on Grumbletext there appears to have been a deluge of them. They come from Dialogue Communications Limited according to O2, they gave me an 0871 number of course. Of course O2 didnt want to know, they even claimed it would only cost the same as a 01/02 number to dial 0871 fomr the mobile ! Dialogue in turn washed their hands completely of the problem, extremely rudely I might add, saying they were only a service provider !!!! , then tell you to ring B4UTELE.com, again an 0871 number, only charged at 1p per minute, yes they both claimed this.

I would be very interested to hear from other members if they had the same scam pulled on them, by the way I have sent in the geographical numbers for both, Dialogue is 0114 281 5275, B4UTELE is 0121 643 7969.  I got the Dialogue number from ICSTIS after much complaining and refusing to hang up. Of course, as usual everyone blames everyone else.

I won't hold my breath for a refund.

Cry
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idb
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Re: Unsolicited reverse charge billing
Reply #19 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 9:49pm
 
I maintain a pre-pay (PAYG) cellular phone with Orange, mainly for use when I visit my home country to avoid high roaming charges. To keep the service active, I usually send myself an SMS message every five or six months. On Sunday it was time to do this. As soon as I switched on the handset, a spam SMS was visible from 84010 which consequently reduced my balance to almost zero. Complaining to Orange was a waste of time, however I had to suspend my service to prevent any more of this garbage. I explained that I could not actually originate a short-code, even if I wanted to, as the US network would intercept it as an invalid code, however Orange could not accept this technical issue. It suggested I call ICSTIS which I duly did on Monday morning. A waste of time - it was suggested I contact the company, Dialogue, which as we know, uses 0871 and 0870 numbers. I sent off a web email but, as expected no response. A further call to ICSTIS on Tuesday, same result. This time, suggested I contact B4U, andother 0871 user. Again, a web mail request met with nil response. A call to Ofcom proved useless as it is not concerned about these scams. My next thought was to report this as fraud and theft to West Midlands police. I submitted a complaint, also mentioning the problem with their use of 0845 numbers which meant I could not call them. Today I receive the following response which effectively states that I have to pursue this with the FBI:

<<
Thank you for contacting West Midlands Police.

I read with interest your email and would like to progress your enquiry as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately, International protocol dictates that we cannot communicate directly with you.

The correct procedure will be for you to report the matter to your local law enforcement department. They in turn should then pass it through the appropriate channels to the FBI who will consider the most appropriate course of action.

I am sorry that this might not be what you anticipated. There are stringent guidelines and we can only operate within the procedures agreed.

Regards

Economic Crime Unit,
Viceroy House.
>>

So, I am 1.50 GBP out of pocket, stolen by a scammer yet I have seemingly no recourse.

The whole telephone regulation in the UK is a merry-go-round of mediocrity, lethargy, dithering and complicity in fraud. I'm in two minds as to whether to pursue this with the feds or to filter it through my MP back home. What an absolute joke. ICSTIS wouldn't recognize their ar5e from their elbow and couldn't see a fraud if presented with a three-pound note. The call center staff seem to have an aggregate of half-a-brain. The word 'independent' needs to be dropped from their title - they are as bad, if not worse, than the fraudsters committing these criminal offences.

Does anyone with appropriate knowledge know whether the assertion by West Mids police is in fact correct and that they cannot entertain a crime report from a resident of another country? Sounds a bit bonkers to me.

Incidentally West Mids conveniently overlooked my complaint about their use of 0845.
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« Last Edit: Apr 8th, 2006 at 6:49pm by DaveM »  

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bbb_uk
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Re: Unsolicited reverse charge billing
Reply #20 - Apr 8th, 2006 at 12:11pm
 
I don't know about West mids response but if it is of any help I'm sure I read on the MSE forum a while ago that something similar happend to this forum member and at first the network said it was outside their control (I think it was either o2 or orange) but eventually after arguing with them over it and they subseqently checked his txt history and confirmed that he hadn't requested to be contacted and refunded him.

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Dave
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Re: Unsolicited reverse charge billing
Reply #21 - Apr 8th, 2006 at 8:33pm
 
bbb_uk wrote on Apr 8th, 2006 at 12:11pm:
... at first the network said it was outside their control (I think it was either o2 or orange) but eventually after arguing with them over it and they subseqently checked his txt history and confirmed that he hadn't requested to be contacted and refunded him.

I know it has been mentioned that as it is your provider that bills you, then the contract is between you and them and not the telco provider of the scamming company. Thus, it is surely your provider's responsibility to be able to proove that you did indeed sign up for such a service.

I find it appalling there is no system in place for the mobile networks to reject such messages if the subscriber doesn't wish to recieve them. Sending such messages out gives scammers carte blanche to dip into people's account, quite often unnoticed.
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idb
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Re: Unsolicited reverse charge billing
Reply #22 - Apr 9th, 2006 at 4:08am
 
Dave wrote on Apr 8th, 2006 at 8:33pm:
I know it has been mentioned that as it is your provider that bills you, then the contract is between you and them and not the telco provider of the scamming company. Thus, it is surely your provider's responsibility to be able to proove that you did indeed sign up for such a service.

I find it appalling there is no system in place for the mobile networks to reject such messages if the subscriber doesn't wish to recieve them. Sending such messages out gives scammers carte blanche to dip into people's account, quite often unnoticed.
I've now lodged a written complaint with the Orange Executive Office (assuming its email address is valid). This in many ways is an even more serious scam than 087X - there will be many cellphone users, particularly pre-pay customers, who have no idea that they have fallen victim to a fraud given the absence of billing records from the cellular provider. ICSTIS has been wholly useless in providing any level of consumer protection. One would think that, given Dialogue Communications (the SP for 84010) has already been fined (see below) 17,500 pounds for similar scamming last year that this would be sufficient for the regulator to do something. Instead it sits on its backside with its corporate head buried deep within. ICSTIS cannot seek refunds!!! What a joke. ICSTIS is complicit in this fraud. Like Ofcom, it serves no useful purpose and nneds to be replaced with an independent regulator with some technical understanding of the issues and an ability to take action against these scumbags.


From ICSTIS web site - adjudications:

28 September 2005
Provider(s)  Dialogue Communications Ltd
Location Sheffield
Telephone network(s) O2
Orange
T-Mobile
Vodafone and Virgin
Service type Unsolicited text service - subscription service
Cost £1.50 per message
Number of complaints 3
Source of complaint Public
Complaint from Nationwide
Fine £5,000
Sanction Formal reprimand

29 December 2005
Provider(s)  Dialogue Communications Ltd
Location Sheffield
Telephone network(s) All mobile networks
Service type Reverse-billed competition
Cost £1.50 per message received
Number of complaints 2
Source of complaint Public
Complaint from Nationwide
Fine £7,500
Sanction Formal reprimand

29 December 2005
Provider(s)  Dialogue Communications Ltd
Location Sheffield
Telephone network(s) All mobile networks
Service type Various reverse-billed SMS
Cost Various tariffs
Number of complaints 1
Source of complaint Monitoring
Fine £5,000
Sanction Suspended 6-month bar on access
Formal reprimand

See:
http://www.icstis.org/consumers/adjudications/default.asp?node=&id=352
http://www.icstis.org/consumers/adjudications/default.asp?node=&id=384
http://www.icstis.org/consumers/adjudications/default.asp?node=&id=392

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Flutty
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Re: Unsolicited reverse charge billing
Reply #23 - Apr 10th, 2006 at 9:02am
 
Thanks for the feedback, this is building up an interesting case, not directly 08xx related.

A postscript to this is in speaking to ICSTIS this morning, I gave them the geo number for Dialogue and they claimed that the 0871 number was National Rate, the lady I spoke to had no idea of the charging rate for 0871.

I do not honestly hold out much hope of OFCOM sorting out this 08xx mess, it seems they are just making a complicated situation worse. They should simply go back 15 years and accept they didnt police the numbering properly, let the telecoms companies keep all the huge amounts they have made over that period and now put it back to how it should have been.

Oh I wish . . .

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