[quote author=jrawle link=1140696094/210#222 date=1160344997]While I don't expect special treatment or anything, my post has been ignored... I would quite like xyhfna to comment on why I should pay a premium to contact a company who have wrongly taken money from my account through no fault of my own.[/quote]
I apologise for missing anyones post, but with so much hostility to differing points of view it is easy for me to miss the odd thing.
In answer, you shouldnt have to pay any premium for such a scenario. However, it is my preference for operator assisted redirects, in which an real person evaluates the callers purpose, and transfers to the appropriate number/department. This should be facilitated in the same way that some mobile phone companies operate some services, i.e. "transfering you to x number will cost you y, do you wish to be transfered?" in circumstances where a legitimate charge could be brought, and "transfering you to z number is free of any additional charges, please hold tha line". This is not possible with the current system, and would require OfCom to look at how transfers are handled and regulated.

[quote author=jrawle link=1140696094/210#222 date=1160344997]I agree with xyhfna that it's unacceptable to be forced by BT and others to pay for inclusive calls.[/quote]
again some common ground! good to see some of my arguments are considered justifiable.

[quote author=jrawle link=1140696094/210#222 date=1160344997]What I would like is for the occasional calls I am forced to make to incompetent companies to be included...[/quote]
hmmm... this seems to be a bit of a mixed consept, either calls ARE included or they are NOT. It is absolutly impossible to include some and not others without paying extra charges somewhere. I believe that for people like yourself (and myself included) would benefit more from paying at the per call level than paying extra telecom service charges. For others, as i have explained, it would probably make sense to pay extra telecom service charges for inclusive calls to be used rather than paying for each call.

Not aimed at jrawle: I too have asked for feedback on some of my questions (namely my proposal for an OfCom review of the numbering system) so dont feel left out, it seems to be endemic in this forum. Theres nothing like a good bit of bear bating, especiall when there is a legitimate point behind it!

dorf wrote on Dec 14^th, 2006 at 1:00pm:


dorf,

After 1st Feb 2008 all revenue share on 0870 will be impossible for the call centre recipient and their TCP telecoms supplier but for reasons that Ofcom has persistently refused to explain (even when I attended a meeting there) or make clear your OCP (your telecoms supplier) will be allowed to charge you more than their 01/02 call rate if they provide a pre-announcement of the call cost.  The only reason for this seems to be to allow important companies like Vodafone with friends at Ofcom to continue to scam consumers for extra on 084/7 calls and in particular so that 0845/7 calls can still be excluded from deals like Vodafone Passport and Vodafone Stop the Clock.  But why is Ofcom doing this.  All the people who receive 0870 calls will still need to move to 0844, 0845 or 0871 or 09 if they want to go on taking revenue share from the consumer.  0870 Advice has made it clear neither he or his clients will any longer get revenue share on 0870 calls after 1st Feb 2008.

I take it you have not read the ICSTIS Pre-Consultation on 0871 regulation (you did not respond to it).  If you have it will leave your blood boiling as it is a totally outrageous attempt to have 0871 regulated by ICSTIS but then not called Premium Rate and not even using the main ICSTIS symbol.  The proposed scam by Ofcom is now apparently to allow these calls to be called Business Rate.  That would encourage every business in the land to move to 10p per minute revenue share 0871 numbers and abandon normal 01/02 numbers.

It is clear Ofcom are not enforcing their competition duties to lower the cost of phone calls and now exist only to prop up the profitability of major telecoms businesses like BT, TalkTalk, Sky and Vodafone who have very powerful friends inside Ofcom.  Ofcom are a total disgrace who should be stripped of their Fair Trading and Competition regulation powers with these being returned to the OFT and the Competition Commission who are not hijacked regulators like Ofcom is.

New Labour clone Ed Richard is in charge of Ofcom now.  Things can only go from bad to worse.

Hi Dorf,

I believe what NGM is trying to say is that revenue sharing will stop which means all companies/organisations/government departments like Sky, TalkTalk, DVLA, BBC and any other company/organisation/government departments using an 0870 will not receive revenue from their number(s) like they do now.

All revenue sharing will effectively end except for some unknown reason, OfcoN have said that if an Originating Communication Provider like BT, TalkTalk, NTL/TW, Euphony, Sky and all other teleco's that are originating communications providers (ie bill us customers for calls made via their network for which we are a customer of) then they can do so only if they play a free announcement before the beginning of the call.

As revenue sharing will end then in theory (at least), OCP's will have no reason to charge more than a geographical call (or exclude from inclusive minutes).  However, if they want to specifically continue to charge more for calls to 0870 then they can do so providing they warn us first.

Further still, it's entirely possible that those companies/organisations/government departments using 0870 may have to pay an incoming call fee of x amount per minute.  This, in most cases, will more than likely force them to migrate back to geographicals (unlikely) or move to other revenue share numbers like 0844/0845/0871.

Personally, I can't see the reason why an Originating Communication Provider (OCP) would continue to charge more than a geographical call to 0870 numbers simply because revenue sharing will end.  This is especially true because they will have to play a free announcement at the beginning of such a call if they wanted to charge more than a geographical number or exclude it from inclusive minutes.

The one thing all OCP's stated in their consultation responses is that they (the OCPs) think it would cost them way too much money to upgrade their systems so that we, the consumers, are provided with free call announcements.  If this is actually true like they try to claim then no OCP will (in theory at least) charge more than the going rate of a geographical call or exclude them from inclusive minutes.

dorf wrote on Dec 14^th, 2006 at 9:08pm:


Dorf,

You are mistaken in your understanding of what is going to happen on Feb 1st 2008 for 0870 numbers hence why you do not understand my comments.

All the telcos were lieing and Ofcom were lieing when they said it was too expensive to provide call price announcements,  the reality is that they and OfCoN do not want consumers to know what they are paying for these covert premium rate calls.

In my view because the average stupid punter still think 0870 has not changed status plenty of scammers at the originating telco end (especially mobiles) will try and go on charging the extra old price even though the party receiving the call and their telecoms operator will not get the revenue share. Since they the originating call provider will get all the extra call price if they keep things at the old 0870 rate they have every incentive to try it on and steal this money.  The question is why has Ofcom made provision for this - apparently only in the hope of letting its telco chums have even more profitable scam opportunities.  Chances are at the last moment OfCon will say the extra call price announcement for companies who do not charge 01/02 prices for 0870 is not technically feasible after all.

To be quite honest I'm entirely prepared to believe that OfCoN and ICSTIS will suddenly decide 1st Feb 2008 is a date they can't meet this coming summer and will postpone the whole ending of 0870 revenue share by 18 months.  The scammers may also bring major legal cases to stop 0870 revenue share ending that could drag on through the courts for years.

But as things stand scammers like Sky and their ilk need to work on the basis of moving to more expensive 10p per minute at all times 0871 nunbers to carry on with the scam.  And because 0871 sounds like 0870 most of the stupid punters call it without knowing its 10p per minute and is not now and never has been a national call.

And while Ofcom lied to us in NTS Way Forward document by suggesting 0871 was going to come under full ICSTIS control the reality now is a completely watered down special 0871 ICSTIS regime with call charges in small print, no ban on call queuing and no use of the word Premium Rate required.   They probably won't even be subject to 09 premium call barring (why do you think Ofcom refused to move them on to the 09 prefix

In other words another clear example that Ed Richards, Matt Peacock and their chums at Ofcom have totally sold us and the general public down the river in line with the instructions they have secretly receive from their New Labour masters.  Total loyalty to those orders is required if the Ofcom gravy train is to be allowed to continue at its present exorbitant levels of staff remuneration.

dorf wrote on Dec 15^th, 2006 at 12:07am:
The revenue sharing on 0870 will end.  No one at all will get any revenue.  However, Original Communications Providers like BT/cable that have control over how much they want to charge for calls made from their network can charge whatever they want for calls to 0870 so long as a free announcement is made if they charge more than the geographical rate or exclude them from inclusive minutes.  Regardless of how much the likes of BT may charge for calls to 0870, the end company/government department using the 0870 will NOT receive any revenue from it at all.

Ofcom has always allowed Original Communications Providers like BT, cable, etc to charge what they want for a call and they are still allowing this for 0870 numbers come 2008 even though no revenue share will take place at all.  In other words, if BT did want to charge more than the cost of a geographical call for calls to 0870 from their network then BT keep ALL the extra money and none of it is passed on (ie shared).

As for 0871, at this time it's uncertain because ICSTIS is yet to decide.  They released a pre-consultation a few months ago and this pretty much said they didn't want to do anything.  However, a final consultation on 0871 will be released around February next year and the results of this final consultation will be known towards the end of 2007.

Thank you for your replies. Now that we have some definite statements that pretty much concurs with what I understand to be the position.

However, I feel you are still perhaps missing the potential for 0870 continuing to be abused in the same way as 070 PNS has been, due to the latitude which Ofcom have allowed in call charging with a verbal announcement. That was what I meant originally. I believe Ofcom have made these decisions for 0870 deliberately and calculatingly, after discussion with their "buddies", on the basis that these will then be able to continue with the scam in a modified form, as they did with 070 PNS. Ofcom are not intending call queuing on 0870 to be prohibited. If you put the two together you have a perfect recipe for the likes of BT to generate a scenario for continuing the abuses in a modified form. You will no doubt recall that Oftel prohibited revenue sharing with the registered terminating subscriber for 070 PNS (but only temporarily!) and only with the registered terminating subscriber. In this case (for 0870) it seems also revenue sharing is to be prohibited only to the registered terminating subscriber. We shall see in due course whether my suspicions are correct. 

With 0871 it seems you now entirely agree with me that no definitive statement has been made by Ofcom yet as to the exact changes, if any, which they will finally implement.

It is important that these things are stated clearly and concisely, since those who are not any longer deferentially following the nauseous details of Ofcom's time-wasting endless verbiage, prevarication and refusal to undertake their statutory duties may not otherwise be absolutely certain what the exact position now is with their intent

For the record, I still believe that come February 2008 when 0870 loses its revenue share that BT will start charging the same as their geographical numbers.

If BT do it, then there is a chance that the other main landline competitors will follow.

However, I'm unsure about mobiles.