SAYNOTO0870.COM - Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan

bbb_uk

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #30 - Feb 25^th, 2006 at 12:45pm

If my memory serves me correctly but wasn't the old 03x codes used for NGN before they were all changed to 08x? (eg, I'm sure there were codes like 0345 which migrated to 0845).

I assume that ofcon and COI will recommend that govt depts use these new codes so as not to charge us more than necessary like they do with current range.

I do believe that Ofcon have chosen this route based on NGMs and other forum member comments and obviously after reading this site. As mentioned by NGM, most gov depts use 0845 for intelligent call routing only and specifically not for the revenue they can receive if they shopped around so it made perfect sense to have a number that offered same ICR but without the added expense.

I suspect that ofcon can't force teleco's to include this new number range (03x) into existing call packages that most of us have except for maybe BT because they do have Significant Market Power (SMP).

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Dave

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #31 - Feb 25^th, 2006 at 1:09pm

bbb_uk wrote on Feb 25^th, 2006 at 12:45pm:

I suspect that ofcon can't force teleco's to include this new number range (03x) into existing call packages that most of us have ...

Can't or won't?

bbb_uk wrote on Feb 25^th, 2006 at 12:45pm:

... except for maybe BT because they do have Significant Market Power (SMP).

For telcos that don't have so-called SMP, they often stick together when it suits them. Look at mobile networks charging for freephone numbers and higher rates than geographicals at that. If that had been BT then Ofcom would have played its SMP card.

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bbb_uk

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #32 - Feb 25^th, 2006 at 1:48pm

Dave wrote on Feb 25^th, 2006 at 1:09pm:

bbb_uk wrote on Feb 25^th, 2006 at 12:45pm:

I suspect that ofcon can't force teleco's to include this new number range (03x) into existing call packages that most of us have ...

Can't or won't?

Probably more won't that can't. They dont like using the many powers they have as regulator. Most of the time they don't mess with anyones pricing structure except for BT's. The only time they have done this is forcing mobile networks to reduce their termination costs when calling cross-networks and this was done because they said it was anti-competitive which obviously it was and probably because of an EU investigaton into anti-competitive behaviour of the two biggest networks.

Dave wrote on Feb 25^th, 2006 at 1:09pm:

bbb_uk wrote on Feb 25^th, 2006 at 12:45pm:

... except for maybe BT because they do have Significant Market Power (SMP).

For telcos that don't have so-called SMP, they often stick together when it suits them. Look at mobile networks charging for freephone numbers and higher rates than geographicals at that. If that had been BT then Ofcom would have played its SMP card.

I totally agree. I just hope that ofcom does force the networks to introduce call announcements on these type of calls because faced with that I believe the networks would lower their charges to these numbers - not as cheap as landline but not far of.

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kk

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #33 - Feb 25^th, 2006 at 6:57pm

Ofcom’s proposal for number reclassification has some reasonable points but unfortunately still retains the potentially confusing numbering system that will in time be exploited to the detriment of the consumer. I would avoid the confusion between calls that cost the same and are treated in all respects like the present 01 and 02 numbers and calls that cost more or are treated differently.

I would have 3 classes of number.

Normal numbers. Numbers that are charged at the normal rates as 01 or 02 and are treated in all respects like normal numbers (that is 0p/min on option 3 and 1866 etc )

Mobile numbers. Kept only to 07

Premium numbers. Numbers that exceed the cost of normal numbers or are not treated in all respects like normal numbers. I would confine those numbers to the “09" class only. The 11 digit 09 class can be subdivided into 090, 091, 092, 093, 094, 095, 096, 097, 098 and 099 each with 99,999,900 different numbers (allowing for 100 unusable combinations).

In summary.

01 geographic numbers (costing between 3p to 0p/min and included in “free” packages).

02 geographic numbers (costing between 3p to 0p/min and included in “free” packages).

03 non- geographic numbers (costing between 3p to 0p/min and included in “free” packages).

04 reserved - if used, would cost between 3p to 0p/min and included in “free” packages.

05 reserved - if used, would cost between 3p to 0p/min and included in “free” packages.

06 reserved - if used, would cost between 3p to 0p/min and included in “free” packages.

07 for mobile phones only (“personal numbers” moved to 097)

08 free phone only (084x and 087x moved to "09" or "03", depending on price structure required)

[ Now amended, see post #43 ]

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« Last Edit: Mar 5^th, 2006 at 11:03am by kk »

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #34 - Feb 25^th, 2006 at 7:12pm

kk,

Yours is the ideal model but Ofcom won't go down that route because changing to 09 would totally destroy the businesses of all the 084/7 scam operators. Yes I know we would like that to happen but you have to accept that Ofcom have a different agenda of not interfering in business unless it is to protect the consumer. And the consumer can be protected without making these types of calls move to 09.

I do however think it would be reasonable to define 06 as lower costs chargeable services (avoiding the word premium rate which is not acceptable to Ofcom or the people who offer these services) and for all 084/7 services to have to move there if they want to go on charging more than standard calls. Also all these new 06 numbers would have to provide compulsory call price announcements.

To allow the 084/7 scammers to stay where they are with no call price announcements will allow them to continue to perpetuate the grotesque local/national rate call cost myth.

Also the mobile phone numbering system should be restructured so that each mobile operators is associated with a particular 07 number sequence. Although allowing for ever increasing number portability this doesn't work so the only solution is for all 07 mobile calls to carry compulsory pence per minute call price announcements.

And don't forget that Ofcom has proposed in its number portability consultation that landline numbers can be ported to mobile use and the caller charged mobile rates for calling an 01/02 number. Outrageous yes but this is what scam helping and "let's not stand in the way of profitable business" Ofcom has incredibly proposed.

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« Last Edit: Feb 25^th, 2006 at 7:13pm by N/A »

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #35 - Feb 25^th, 2006 at 7:15pm

bbb_uk wrote on Feb 25^th, 2006 at 12:45pm:

I suspect that ofcon can't force teleco's to include this new number range (03x) into existing call packages that most of us have except for maybe BT because they do have Significant Market Power (SMP).

Ofcom does have the power to regulate that 03 numbers have no revenue share or micro payment mechanism involved and are charged exactly the same way to telcos as 01 and 02 numbers. If all that is done then 1899, TalkTalk etc have no possible reason to charge extra for any 03 number or to excude it from all inclusive calling plans like BT Option 3.

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #36 - Feb 25^th, 2006 at 7:20pm

Dave wrote on Feb 25^th, 2006 at 1:09pm:

For telcos that don't have so-called SMP, they often stick together when it suits them. Look at mobile networks charging for freephone numbers and higher rates than geographicals at that.

Yes its what they call an Oligopoly in Economics or an anti-competitive price fixing cartel in modern regulatory jargon.

The other unacceptable areas are none of them providing proper call itemisation for Pay As You Go customers who want it and the fact that none of the uk networks have roaming agreements with each other to cover the substantial parts of the uk landmass where they have no coverage but a competitor does have coverage. At the moment they have no incentive to improve their coverage if you can't roam on to a rival operator's network when your own priovider does not have coverage.

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Dave

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #37 - Feb 26^th, 2006 at 3:46pm

Quote:

The other unacceptable areas are [...] the fact that none of the uk networks have roaming agreements with each other to cover the substantial parts of the uk landmass where they have no coverage but a competitor does have coverage. At the moment they have no incentive to improve their coverage if you can't roam on to a rival operator's network when your own priovider does not have coverage.

It's quite astounding that Ofcom has apparently done nothing about this. Still, I'm sure that in London there is coverage everywhere, except maybe the Underground, or have they got round to this? It would make sense for all the networks to work together and "do their bit" on this one.

Similarly, does the GSM system not allow for keeping calls running whilst switching networks which could be implemented in rural areas with restricted or no coverage on particular networks? I presume that the 3 service works like that when roaming onto O2's network.

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« Last Edit: Feb 26^th, 2006 at 3:47pm by Dave »

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Tanllan Supreme Member Offline Posts: 797 Gender:	Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan Reply #38 - Feb 26^th, 2006 at 5:10pm In South (I think, continent anyway) Africa the operators with masts are delighted to rent space to those without, because of the income, and those without are delighted to pay rent, because it is cheaper than building a mast. And in the UK? Well, b off with you it's ours.
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bbb_uk

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #39 - Feb 26^th, 2006 at 6:25pm

Looking at Ofcom's consultation pages for this here, I noticed that the response sheet had 61 questions (yes, I couldn't believe it either).

More information:

Consultation Summary
Full main Consultation (.pdf - 1.5mb)
Numbering Review: Report of Market Research Findings
Finer Digit Analysis of Telephone Numbers for Routeing Purposes
Consultation Responses

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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #40 - Feb 26^th, 2006 at 7:23pm

bbb_uk wrote on Feb 26^th, 2006 at 6:25pm:

Looking at Ofcom's consultation pages for this here, I noticed that the response sheet had 61 questions (yes, I couldn't believe it either)

Clearly Ofcom didn't like the freehand responses they have been getting (especially from me, dorf and idb) so have tried to head this off by spinning the responses in the direction they want them to go. As most people are lazy and just answer Yes/No to the questions asked there is a danger that Ofcom will be successful in fiddling the consultation to get the answers it wants to hear.

Also by asking 61 questions it is likely that most people will feel they can't be bothered and just give up. The only people this won't be true of is the large corporates who have staff members paid to respond to these consultations. Again Ofcom seem to be trying to make their consultations as inaccessible as possible to the uk citizen and consumer.

It seems to be that the standard response form should be just a single box for the one or two points that most consumers typically have to make on a consultation and the 61 questions should only be responded to by the experts who will understand the consultation in this much detail. Even then I suspect it may be better to send in a freehand response by email avoiding Ofcom's biased questions.

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Tanllan Supreme Member Offline Posts: 797 Gender:	Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan Reply #41 - Feb 26^th, 2006 at 8:51pm Is it just me, or is it not possible to print question 32 onwards from the Ofcom site - in response questions?
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NonGeographicalMan

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #42 - Feb 26^th, 2006 at 10:18pm

Tanllan wrote on Feb 26^th, 2006 at 8:51pm:

Is it just me, or is it not possible to print question 32 onwards from the Ofcom site - in response questions? Embarrassed

Can you clarify the precise nature of the problem Tanllan as I must confess to not quite understanding the nature of the technical issue you have encountered.

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kk

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #43 - Feb 27^th, 2006 at 12:23am

After further consideration, I have reworked my previous reply and for convenience posted it in its new form.

Ofcom’s proposal for number reclassification has some reasonable points but unfortunately still retains the potentially confusing numbering system that will in time be exploited to the detriment of the consumer. I would avoid the confusion between calls that cost the same and are treated in all respects like the present 01 and 02 numbers and calls that cost more or are treated differently.

I would have 3 classes of number.

Normal numbers. Numbers that are charged at the normal rates as 01 or 02 and are treated in all respects like normal numbers (that is 0p/min on option 3 and 1866 etc )

Mobile numbers. 07 ("peronal numbers" moved out)

Premium/Special numbers. Numbers that exceed the cost of normal numbers or are not treated in all respects like normal numbers. I would confine those numbers to the “09" class only. The 11 digit 09 class can be subdivided into 090, 091, 092, 093, 094, 095, 096, 097, 098 and 099 each with 99,999,900 different numbers (allowing for 100 unusable combinations).

In summary I would propose:

01 geographic numbers (costing between 3p to 0p/min and included in “free” packages).

02 geographic numbers (costing between 3p to 0p/min and included in “free” packages).

03 non- geographic numbers (costing between 3p to 0p/min and included in “free” packages).

04 reserved - if used, would cost between 3p to 0p/min and included in “free” packages.

05 reserved - if used, would cost between 3p to 0p/min and included in “free” packages.

06 reserved - if used, would cost between 3p to 0p/min and included in “free” packages.

07 for mobile phones only (“personal numbers” moved to 097)

08 free-phone only (084x and 087x migrate to "09" or "03", depending on price structure required)

09 any land-line number which cost more than the normal rate and/or is excluded from a consumers call options at 0p/min.
This 11 digit “09" class can be split into 090, 091, 092, 093, 094, 095, 096, 097, 098 and 099 sub-classes,
each sub-class having 99,999,900 different numbers (allowing for, say, 100 unusable combinations).

For example:
090 all calls at less than the normal rate, but not included in “free” call packages - eg internet dial up and lower cost revenue sharing.
091 charges above the normal call rate (say up to 10p/min)
092 charges above the normal call rate (say 20p/min)
093 charges above the normal call rate (say 30p/min)
094 charges above the normal call rate (say 40p/min)
095 charges above the normal call rate (say 50p/min to 150p/min)
096 charges above the normal call rate (reserved)
097 for so called “personal numbers” (now on 070).
098 fixed charge per call.
099 for adult lines.

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« Last Edit: Mar 5^th, 2006 at 11:06am by kk »

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andy9

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #44 - Feb 27^th, 2006 at 2:46am

That scheme appears to have no definition of or space for call rates between 1p and 10p per minute, which is surely rather important, given that fairly few people actually use the present 09 numbers except maybe televoting etc where the tariffs must be clear.

If it is confusing that personal follow-me services are on 070 at present, then 097, bundled in with different tariff types and usage, is no better. Nowadays most of them are overpriced compared to mobiles so are probably becoming less used except for contentious cases like hospitals.

I know that several disagree, but I reckon 080 free and 081 to 089 in steadily increasing tariffs is perfectly understandable and a great improvement on the present. I can understand similar use in other countries at a very brief glance.

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