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Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan (Read 326,522 times)
Fabian
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Re: OFCOM, Wrong info again!
Reply #75 - Mar 19th, 2006 at 4:26pm
 
I must apologise if this message is confusing.  I have attempted to isolate the quote from the letter but can only do this by the use of ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,  

I wonder if any members of this forum are aware of an article published in last week’s Sunday Times.  It is by Stewart Mitchell and is  titled "Talking point: New phone codes aim to curb those premium-rate rip-offs".  Much of it is taken up with Trojan Horses, premium line "free offer" rip offs and the like and the apparent inability of Ofcom and Icstis to contain the problem but it contains the following observations.
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Yet rip-offs are merely one symptom of a telephone numbering system that is plainly out of control and confusing to all but the super-numerate. Most people know that it costs nothing to call, say, Amazon on an 0800 number, to check up on your order of Alan Sugar’s The Apprentice. Yet how are we to know that calling Lastminute’s 0871 number to book a fancy weekend in Brooklyn costs 10p per minute? Or that a glimpse into the future from Live Psychic Readings’ 0906 hotline costs £1.50 per minute? They must have seen us coming.

Thank heavens, then, that public vexation has persuaded Ofcom to propose simpler, tariff-related dialling codes and enable consumers to bar premium-rate scams, too. For a start, both 08 and 09 prefixes would, in future, be followed by a digit that reflects price. Calling 082, for example, would be cheaper than 089.

As well as indicating cost, these new numbers would, in theory, enable parents to bar children from calling premium-rate sex-talk lines. Even better, if you hate companies that use high-priced 0870/1 numbers to increase profit while providing basic customer services, Ofcom is proposing a new 03 nationwide prefix, charged at the same rate as geographic numbers such as 0161 (for Manchester).

Whether companies will use the new numbers and forgo revenue is debatable. If they were serious about customer service, they would have adopted the free 0800 numbers.

Simplifying the current brain-taxing system sounds sensible, but initial reactions were mixed from Craig Skinner, a numbering expert at the telecoms researcher Ovum. "Most concern centres on the 08 and 09 number ranges, where the changes will be difficult to manage. This will require education of customers and significant cost for individual business."

What of the scammers? Ofcom plans to change the way numbers are allocated, and threatens to deny numbers to phone networks that have hosted service providers which have abused consumer trust. So, if fraudsters use their networks illegally, the responsibility for policing the premium-rate market passes to the private sector. Skinner said: "The ban on revenue-sharing on 03 numbers might help, but this won’t clear up scams among companies that choose to stick with 08 and 09 numbers."

Ofcom has a table illustrating its proposals at tinyurl.com/ezgww, and the consultation runs until May. Doors invites your suggestions for improving telephone numbering, which we will forward to the regulator. Mail them to doorscampaign@sunday-times.co.uk.
Quote ends
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Bracketing 08 with 09 numbers as the writer does, suggests that he has not grasped the essence of the rip-off although in a later paragraph he seems to do so.

I wish to make two points about this article

1. He has not publicised the Ofcom consultation site, merely the site illustrating the pricing differentials
2. This article gives all forum members access to a national newspaper which has invited comment.  

It will be recalled that the Sunday Times spearheaded a campaign on Rip-Off Britain which resulted in a OFT enquiry.  Unfortunately the outcome of this was that Rip-Off Britain was a myth.  

I suggest that it would do no harm if forum members responded to Stewart Mitchell’s invitation.  I have already done so.



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bbb_uk
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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #76 - Mar 19th, 2006 at 6:46pm
 
Quote:
To do Clive Hillier credit he didn't say I had come to the wrong forum or use that as an excuse not to answer but instead said these proposals were in addition to proposing to change 0870 to geographic rates.
As you said this is in contradiction to making clearer the cost of 084/087?  Us consumers, which are always thought of last in the eyes of Ofcon, are likely to be confused over these new number range charges because at first thought 087, in the eyes of most consumers, will be thought of as more expensive than 084 simply because of how they are numbered.

To me it still sounds as though ofcon are going to do a U turn on their proposals for 0870 numbers despite having more than 1200+ plus consumers telling them they want this number range charged at geographical rates.  Mainly the ones who objected to this were companies that have a interest in keeping this scam going for as long as possible - especially from mobile networks because they charge so much more.

Quote:
He also tried to take us through the logic of their 06 proposals which he said were numbers that would be capped at no more than 20p per minute.
I agree that this appears to give Patientline scam the go-ahead but at a lower charge even though they are using the personal number range purely to gain revenue without being under ICSTIS control.
Quote:
At this point some rather haughty and upper class industry person from somewhere like Vodafone asked whether valid though my questions no doubt were if I was at the right forum to raised them.   So once again we see that Ofcom prefers only to meet in person with industry persons where they can all talk industry speak and keeping the telecoms industry profitable.
I totally agree.  The workshop clearly has implications and concerns us consumers so we should have been invited but they want to try and keep things in their little quiet domain then just force things upon us without warning.

Quote:
There was one public spoken senior looking industry chappie in a smart suit who asked Steve Unger why when consumers had asked repeatedly for a call price announcement facility over the years (especially for 07, 09 and 084/7 type calls plus 118 dq calls) Ofcom had never done anything about this and wouldn't  it be better for the industry's reputation if it had.  To which the answer was that Ofcom's surveys showed not much consumer demand and that it was very expensive and difficult for telcos to offer this facility.
I agree it may be expensive but at the very least mobile companies should be forced to do this first because they generally charge so much more than BT do.  Mobile networks already have a similar thing in operation for their 080 freephone calls which aren't generally free anymore.  They inform people ringing that they will be charged for the call despite it being freephone.  Why can't this existing system be widened to include 084/087 calls especially from mobile networks that charge so much more than BT, etc.
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« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2006 at 9:53am by bbb_uk »  
 
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Tanllan
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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #77 - Mar 19th, 2006 at 7:16pm
 
Well done NGM.
And surely free front-end announcements can not be that expensive if the Finarea Group, amongst others, can manage it.
After all, what could they have to hide? Cool



~Edited by bbb_uk: Post title amended
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« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2006 at 9:49am by bbb_uk »  
 
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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #78 - Mar 20th, 2006 at 9:51am
 
Tanllan wrote on Mar 19th, 2006 at 7:16pm:
Well done NGM.
And surely free front-end announcements can not be that expensive if the Finarea Group, amongst others, can manage it.
After all, what could they have to hide? Cool
Very good point. I'd forgotten about how Call18866/1899, etc can manage it on the little money they must make compared to the mobile networks.

Ofcom, please take note of this!
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« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2006 at 9:52am by bbb_uk »  
 
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Wicked
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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #79 - Mar 20th, 2006 at 3:25pm
 
And, when they've done, they'll still not be able to tell you what's the difference between the numbers which are charged at g7 and p9 rates (both are 10p/minute incl. VAT at all times) or give a reason why all chargeable 08 numbers can't simply be moved to the 09 range for 'transparency' (that's a word even their New Labour bosses know now).

For example:

0871 660 xxxx – g7 - 10p/minute at all times

0901 71x XXXX - p9 – 10p/minute at all times
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« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2006 at 3:30pm by Wicked »  
 
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jrawle
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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #80 - Mar 20th, 2006 at 5:25pm
 
[quote author=Fabian link=1140696094/75#75 date=1142785565]

Yet rip-offs are merely one symptom of a telephone numbering system that is plainly out of control and confusing to all but the super-numerate. Most people know that it costs nothing to call, say, Amazon on an 0800 number, to check up on your order of Alan Sugar’s The Apprentice. Yet how are we to know that calling Lastminute’s 0871 number to book a fancy weekend in Brooklyn costs 10p per minute? Or that a glimpse into the future from Live Psychic Readings’ 0906 hotline costs £1.50 per minute? They must have seen us coming.

Thank heavens, then, that public vexation has persuaded Ofcom to propose simpler, tariff-related dialling codes and enable consumers to bar premium-rate scams, too. For a start, both 08 and 09 prefixes would, in future, be followed by a digit that reflects price. Calling 082, for example, would be cheaper than 089.

As well as indicating cost, these new numbers would, in theory, enable parents to bar children from calling premium-rate sex-talk lines. Even better, if you hate companies that use high-priced 0870/1 numbers to increase profit while providing basic customer services, Ofcom is proposing a new 03 nationwide prefix, charged at the same rate as geographic numbers such as 0161 (for Manchester).

...

Simplifying the current brain-taxing system sounds sensible, but initial reactions were mixed from Craig Skinner, a numbering expert at the telecoms researcher Ovum. "Most concern centres on the 08 and 09 number ranges, where the changes will be difficult to manage. This will require education of customers and significant cost for individual business."
[/quote]

How are the proposed changes a simplification of the current system? All the current numbers will still exist; they will introduce yet more codes under the 08 prefix; there will be new 03 codes and possibly 06; 0870 will be stuck in the middle of the 08 range but priced the same as an 01 call (although I'm finding it increasingly hard to believe that will happen).

As for 082 being cheaper than 089, that sounds like a good idea, but it still doesn't tell you what it will cost with your particular provider. Only annoucnements before calls would do that. I can't believe this is expensive to implement as all services are computerised, so they can easily program it to do that. If 0844 numbers keep their current pricing, it'll mess that up anyway as they cost between 0.5p/min and 5p/min, and you have to look right to the 8th digit in some cases to find out the cost - if you can find a price list at all. So 081 to 083 will have to cost less than 0.5p/min. 088 and 089 calls will have to cost more than 10p/min as they have to cost more than 0871  ;D

How does this change premium rate call barring in any way? One can already bar 09 numbers - it's free with BT, although if you want a PIN so you can unbar it occasionally, they charge a quarterly fee. International call barring costs too.


What they should do is not allocate any more 08 numbers (apart from freephone). Existing operators may keep their numbers (as forcing businesses to change numbers every few years is stupid - not all of them are scammers). Renevue sharing on 08 numbers could then end in phases, starting with 0870, with numbers becoming geographical rate. Companies then have a choice of keeping their numbers, or moving to an 09 premium number (starting at 1p/min). Much simpler.



[color=#ff0000][size=9]~Edited by bbb_uk: Amended title to match thread[/size][/color]
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« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2006 at 7:05pm by bbb_uk »  
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Tanllan
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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #81 - Mar 20th, 2006 at 9:40pm
 
jrawle wrote on Mar 20th, 2006 at 5:25pm:
Much simpler.
But not, I fear, as profitable - nor in line with the decisions already taken?
We may merely be going through the motions (pause, to check medical meaning).  Cry
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« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2006 at 10:46am by Tanllan »  
 
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kk
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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #82 - Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:55pm
 
The last point jrawle makes is well worth repeating.

".....What they should do is not allocate any more 08 numbers (apart from freephone). Existing operators may keep their numbers (as forcing businesses to change numbers every few years is stupid - not all of them are scammers). Renevue sharing on 08 numbers could then end in phases, starting with 0870, with numbers becoming geographical rate. Companies then have a choice of keeping their numbers, or moving to an 09 premium number (starting at 1p/min). Much simpler. ...."

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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #83 - Apr 1st, 2006 at 2:43pm
 
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As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.
 
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kk
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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #84 - Apr 2nd, 2006 at 11:37am
 
I have read and reread Ofcom’s  full document “Telephone Numbering” (157 pages) in preparation to responding to the consultation   The Ofcome response sheet poses 61 questions in a text box format, which I find unwieldy.  Ofcom have sent me a copy of the consultation questions and cover sheet in Word format, which I find more convenient, so I sent a copy of this Word file to this site for publication some weeks ago, but nothing has appeared.  I also requested that Ofcome publish this combined Word document on its web site, but it has not appeared.

The last response on the related  subject of NTS numbers had an unprecedented response of over 1000.  I suspect that this response may have been made long and complex to deter such a massive  response.
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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #85 - Apr 2nd, 2006 at 5:28pm
 
kk wrote on Apr 2nd, 2006 at 11:37am:
The last response on the related  subject of NTS numbers had an unprecedented response of over 1000.  I suspect that this response may have been made long and complex to deter such a massive  response.
I completely believe you are correct.
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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #86 - Apr 4th, 2006 at 7:26pm
 
Ofcom have just emailed me to tell me of further slippage in the publication of their intended Statement on NTS: A Way Forward that they had last claimed would be published by the end of March.

I have emailed them back asking how they can publish any Statement on NTS: A Way Forward that is not integrated with the outcome of their consultation on the new NTNP and if they aren't also totally and utterly incompetent not to have consulted on the new NTNP proposals at the same time as NTS: A Way Forward.

See www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1127944230/345
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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #87 - Apr 6th, 2006 at 7:00pm
 
Quote:
Ofcom have just emailed me to tell me of further slippage in the publication of their intended Statement on NTS: A Way Forward that they had last claimed would be published by the end of March.

I have emailed them back asking how they can publish any Statement on NTS: A Way Forward that is not integrated with the outcome of their consultation on the new NTNP and if they aren't also totally and utterly incompetent not to have consulted on the new NTNP proposals at the same time as NTS: A Way Forward
Have they emailed you back with a response to your email yet?

Most likely a lack of response would mean they know you have a very good point.
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« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2006 at 7:03pm by bbb_uk »  
 
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NonGeographicalMan
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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #88 - Apr 6th, 2006 at 7:56pm
 
bbb_uk wrote on Apr 6th, 2006 at 7:00pm:
Most likely a lack of response would mean they know you have a very good point.


No Response from OfCoN.  Even the evangelical Mr Matt Peacock (their Communications Director) seems to have given up trying to persuade me that they are the good guys really but simply much misunderstood.  I need to post some articles on www.ofcomwatch.org.uk really and email the 50 interested MPs to alert them of the disgrace of the disconnect between the 084/7 work and the new NTNP from Ofcom.

But it seems guaranteed that so long as New Labour remains in office that telecoms highway robbery will continue to be allowed and the simple thing of people knowing how much a phone call costs before they decide to make it will not come about.

And since anyone with any consumerist led zeal is screened out in favour of salary promoting careerists in the Ofcom staff selection process there seems to be no hope at all of anything changing so long as Mr Stephen Carter continues to rearrange the regulatory furniture to better suit the needs of his old employers. Shocked Angry Angry Angry
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Re: Ofcom review of UK Telephone Numbering Plan
Reply #89 - Apr 13th, 2006 at 9:46am
 
The dealine for this consultation is exactly 3 weeks today on 4 May 2006
  Shocked  Shocked

Like a lot of people I feel overwhelmed by the 61-question-response form, even though I feel strongly about the subject.  I know I can ignore them and just structure my response as I so wish but I thought it might be useful to perhaps highlight a dozen or so of the key questions.  I need help with this though!  Roll Eyes

Personally speaking I would find that helpful in focussing my reponse and maybe it would be helpful to others too.  I've cut and past the questions below within further posts:

PS May I also request that a count-down clock be added to the site's Home page and Search page (as was done previously) as well as links to updated consultation information, so to raise awareness and encourage responses...
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« Last Edit: Apr 13th, 2006 at 10:01am by gdh82 »  

There's more of us that them, stick together and challenge 0870/0845 etc etc
 
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