I am coming under pressure to establish an 08454 facility at my practice (I'm a GP). I understand there are drawbacks to callers but am uncertain as to what they may be! I blocked a move to 0870 some time ago, but would be grateful for any info or advice withregard to 08454 numbers. This is the second time I've used this site and I hope this posting will be as useful as the last time. Thanks Tony

~ Thread title edited by Dave ~

If you have the time, I've found THIS THREAD and THIS THREAD both of which contain useful information.

As Wicked says, others will add detailed replies - which, essentially, will draw your attention to the extra cost use of such numbers imposes on patients - but those threads contain some good background.

Bill - those threads gave me the answers I needed! They can get lost! Cheers Tony

Yes, "surgery line" is a name used by NEG.

They originally opted for 0870 but this was banned by the NHS because of the high costs so 0844 was used instead which is only 2ppm cheaper during surgery hours but actually costs about 3.5ppm more during weekends, etc (outside of surgery hours).

Call charges to various non-geographical numbers (only from a BT landline):-

01x/02x - Geographical calls - Daytime 3ppm, Evening & Weekends 5.5p for upto an hour.  These calls from other landline providers are often cheaper and in some cases free especially at weekends.

0870 - Daytime 7.5ppm, Evening 3.7ppm and Weekends 1.5ppm
0845 - Daytime 3ppm, Evening 1ppm and Weekends 1ppm

0844 - These prices vary upto 5ppm all the time regardless of time of day and NEG Surgery Line numbers actually use numbers that actually cost 5ppm all the time!

This means that by using an 0844 (as used by NEG Surgery Line), your patients are actually paying 5ppm all the time.  This cost is likely to be higher when a patient calls the 0844 out of surgery hours and gets transferred to the emergency doctor service.  This is particularly because there is always a long queue for this service.

The use of an 0844 number will basically mean that NEG Surgery Line actually makes profit of each and every minute we are on a call.  I hope you agree that this shouldn't happen at the expense of your patients that are poorly/elderly and possibly on very low incomes.  One of the other threads mention that NEG don't make a profit but from a financial point of view, this doesn't make sense!  Why would NEG provide a service that they don't make a profit from?  Therefore, I do believe that NEG make a profit and this is at the expense of us patients.

As mentioned above, these costs are based on calls from a BT landline only.  Calls from other landline providers generally cost more (except for calls to geographical landline 01x & 02x which are generally cheaper from other landline providers) and calls from mobile actually can cost upto 35ppm to call one of these non-geographical numbers.

Numbers beginning 084x, 087x are known as non-geographical and are excluded from ALL landline providers inclusive call packages and most mobile networks inclusive call packages.  Therefore those patients of yours that pay upto around £25 per month for unlimited calls are often under the impression it includes all calls but actually doesn't so end up paying even more for these calls despite paying upto £25.  Calls to non-geographical numbers (especially 0844x) numbers may not be possible when calling from overseas simply because of the high costs involved.

Ofcom have the following guidelines about the use of non-geographical numbers used by public funded government bodies:-

"Ofcom believes it is inappropriate for public bodies to use NTS numbers exclusively (i.e. without at a minimum, giving equal prominence to a geographic alternative) when dealing with people on low incomes or other vulnerable groups. Ofcom has been active in providing advice to the Government's Central Office of Information ('COI') and Government Departments and will continue to provide this support. Ofcom would like to see a greater level of compliance with the COI's published guidelines on the use of number ranges, given the level of public disquiet over this issue, and would be keen to support the Government in achieving this objective."

The Central Office of Information have the following guidelines:-

"0845 in particular has been known as ‘local rate’ – however with increased competition in the marketplace and resultant changes in tariff structures, these rates will often be in excess of normal local rates that citizens might be charged on their package. 0845 (and 0844) costs through phone boxes and some mobile tariffs can also be expensive to the citizen and this should also be considered."

Although the above guidelines refer mostly to 0845 it actually applies more to 0844 numbers because they actually cost significantly more than 0845 numbers depending on time of day, etc.

The cheapest rate for us patients (excluding freephone) is a geographical number - all other numbers will cost us more especially if we are in a queue waiting to be answered.

Ofcom have made proposals to introduce a new non-geographical 03x number that will be charged the same as geographical numbers now and hopefully included in our call packages but still have the same features as existing non-geographical numbers now (ie intelligent call routing).

We would be grateful if you let us know what you decide or if you need any further help please don't hesitate to post.

Decision will be not to go with 0844 - period. All local hospitals have 0845 numbers but we will not use them. We will use the geographical numbers as policy from now on. I will contact the local LMC also "in the patient's interests" to bring the matter to their attention. Thanks to you all - the web site has a 100% record for help so far! Tony

Let's look at it another way: the advantages of using a geographical number.

• It's the sort of number everyone's familiar with, and costs the same as calling a normal phone.
• Any discounts or inclusive minutes apply to the number.
• Local and national calls costs the same for almost everyone now. But even if they didn't, don't most people using your surgery come from the local area anyway?
• Local people don't need to dial an area code at all, just 6 or 7 digits.
• The number can be called from abroad from anywhere that allows international direct dialling. (This can't be said for 08xx numbers, which may or may not work from abroad, no guarantees).
• You don't need to change your number from the one your patients already know.
• You don't need to employ middle-men to run your phone service, whose interest is making money out of your patients.

If a company has to approach a surgery and suggest you change to 0844, doesn't that suggest they are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist?

I applaud the stance you are taking over 0844 numbers (and ripping people off in general). If only more people could think like you.

We cannot use 0870 numbers but I am unaware of any official guidance on 0844 numbers I assume as we are being approached to use them that there is not (yet) an issue. Tony

Dave wrote on Mar 8^th, 2006 at 11:22pm:

Would that be the same Department of Health which deemed the 49p per minute Patientline numbers (with the first two minutes being in an electronic queue and not speaking to your relative) acceptable then or that has allowed hospitals to bring in outrageous car park charges for relatives of terminally ill patients.  Either way its all part of "rip-off Britain".

To simplify further for our friend Tony you can make all your 01/02 calls on a home landline for as little as £4 per month if you take an all calls package as an add on as a Tiscali broadband customer (not that I could possibly recommend Tiscali broadband though) or £7.50 per month with Tiscali, TalkTalk and various home phone providers.  Or you can make unlimited calls to 01/02 numbers for nothing with www.voipcheap.co.uk, other than a 5 Euro deposit every 6 months.

By contrast 0844 costs 5p per minute at all times.  So if you have to call just 20 minutes of 0844 numbers a day (and doctors surgeries are of course not the only people being cajoled into using them by ripoff Telcos thanks to the inaction of the utterly wimp like and useless telecoms regulator Ofcom) that's £1 extra a day or £90 extra a quarter on your phone bill.  But had the phone number started 01 or 02 the call would have cost  nothing.  There you have it in a nutshell.

The only reason the DoH allowed NEG/Surgery Line to move on to using 0844 numbers instead of 0870 was because numerous doctors surgeries had been tricked to enter contracts with NEG that they could not get out of.  And if they were broken either those surgeries or the DoH would have had to pay the horrible NEG compensation.

This is a ripoff that relies on people being missold that 0844 is local rate.  See also these references which show why 0844 is not Local Rate:-

Para 1.3 Page 1 of LCC Consumer Protection Service Consultation Response

and

the comments of the CEO of BT Retail Ian Livingston:-

Guidance from the Advertising Standards Authority:-

Hanging on the telephone on & on & on

and

Stop the call confusion

and

Use of 0870 telephone numbers by Government departments

and

CAP rings the changes for telecoms providers

and Pages 5 and 6 of the minutes from my own district council where we agreed policy to stop the future use of 0845 and 0870 numbers.