SAYNOTO0870.COM - BT Price changes from 1/8/2006

bbb_uk

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Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006
Reply #15 - Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:22pm

Justin wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 6:52pm:

I would love to know what Talktalk plan on doing because they promise to be cheaper then BT and with these new prices BT will be cheaper. I hope this means a price war between the companys

TalkTalk only promise to be cheaper than BT with regards to tariff plans and geographical calls (01x/02x) and not non-geographical calls (08x/09x).

Therefore, from my understanding, TalkTalk will still be cheaper on their Talk3 plan compared to BT's Together Option 3. TalkTalk will, however, be 4p more expensive on their Talk2 plan compared to BT Together Option 2.

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Dave

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Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006
Reply #16 - Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:26pm

bbb_uk wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:10pm:

Although this doesn't include NTS numbers, I do believe overtime they will.

bbb_uk, I have to say that I'm not too sure about this one. Yes it's possible, but I think that the main reason for per minute charging is because of the removal of the minimum charge. Of course, it will also mean that any prices quoted 'per minute' will be higher than they at first appear.

Indeed, calls to mobiles and geographicals will cost 3p more than they do now, if they last more than a few minutes.

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« Last Edit: Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:55pm by Dave »

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bbb_uk

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Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006
Reply #17 - Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:39pm

Dave wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:26pm:

bbb_uk wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:10pm:

Although this doesn't include NTS numbers, I do believe overtime they will.

bbb_uk, I have to say that I'm not too sure about this one. Yes it's possible, but I think that the main reason for per minute charging is because of the removal of the minimum charge. Of course, it will also mean that any prices quoted 'per minute' will be higher than they at first appear.

I think it's more related to the reductions in their tariff plans. Generally, any price cuts in one area are counter-balanced (or subsidised to use a better word) in other areas. In this case, their new tariff plans are subsidised by the increase (or introduction) in the connection fee and whole minute charging.

This 3p connection fee will make BT more money than the minimum call charge as most calls made will normally have cost more than the 5.5p minimum call charge anyhow so you ONLY pay for the call. Now, however, you are paying for the call AND a connection fee so therefore any chargable call that is made via BT will effectively cost 3p more than it did, or if making a very quick call or the call is answered by voicemail, then it could cost upto an extra 6p.

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« Last Edit: Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:45pm by bbb_uk »

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kk

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Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006
Reply #18 - Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:55pm

BT’s announcement, is all smoke and mirrors: the more you look at it, the more you realise that quite a lot has gone up in price.

[The following is based on the UK wide call rate of 3ppm for telephoning all locations in the UK during "business hours"]

The average 5 minute call used to cost 15p (5 x 3p)
Now it will cost: 3p connection fee plus 15p (5 x 3p) plus 1.5p** = 19.5p. A 30% increase.

The average 10 minute call used to cost 30p (10 x 3p).
Now it will cost: 3p connection fee plus 30p (10 x 3p) plus 1.5p = 34.5p. A 15% increase.

The average 15 minute call used to cost 45p (15 x 3p)
Now it will cost: 3p connection fee plus 45p (15 x 3p) plus 1.5p = 49.5p. A 10% increase

The average 20 minute call used to cost 60p (20 x 3p).
Now it will cost: 3p connection fee plus 60p (20 x 3p) plus 1.5p = 64.5p. A 7.5% increase.

The average 30 minute call used to cost 90p (30 x 3p).
Now it will cost: 3p connection fee plus 90p (30 x 3p) plus 1.5p = 94.5p. A 5% increase.

The average 60 minute call used to cost 180p (60 x 3p).
Now it will cost: 3p connection fee plus 180p (60 x 3p) plus 1.5p = 184.5p. A 2.5% increase.

**Why have I added 1.5p to the cost of the calls? With the introduction of “whole minute charging”, if the call is just under a whole minute then the cost of the last minute will be 3p. If the call is just over a whole minute then the “last minute” will cost an extra 3p. Statistically, half the calls will be under and half over the payment threshhold, the probability of going over is about 50%. So the average increase will be 1.5p.

I don’t know what the average call length is, but it is clear that by introducing whole minute charging AND a connection fee, call charges have increased considerably.
A typical call lasting 15 minutes has increased by a staggering 10%
.

Tomorrows headlines should read: “BT Announces A Massive Price Increase In Call Costs”

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« Last Edit: Aug 1^st, 2006 at 7:23am by kk »

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Dave

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Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006
Reply #19 - Jul 31^st, 2006 at 8:22pm

kk wrote on Jul 31^st, 2006 at 7:55pm:

A typical call lasting 15 minutes has increased by a staggering 10%
.

kk, I've no doubt that BT has done its calculations inside out, upside down, and back to front to make sure that it's not loosing out. My thoughts above are my initial impressions, and it from what you've calculated, there's more to it than meets the eye (as expected).

Your calculations are of course for daytime calls to geographical numbers. Your 1.5p added to every call can be explained as follows:
Putting the connection charge aside, a per minute call (charged to the nearest minute) that lasts:

Length	Total cost	Avergage
2	6p	3p/min
2min 10s	9p	4.15p/min
2min 20s	9p	3.86p/min
2min 30s	9p	3.60p/min
2min 40s	9p	3.38p/min
2min 50s	9p	3.18p/min
3min	9p	3p/min

So you can see that a call charge that purports to be 3 pence per minute is infact only 3p/min at its lowest point; which is on the whole minutes. Just after a whole minute the per minute average jumps. Crafty..............

Now including the 3p connection fee gives:

Length	Total cost	Avergage
2	9p	4.50p/min
2min 10s	12p	5.54p/min
2min 20s	12p	5.14p/min
2min 30s	12p	4.80p/min
2min 40s	12p	4.50p/min
2min 50s	12p	4.24p/min
3min	12p	4.00p/min

Of course, this all comes just after the statement on the dropping of Retail Price Controls on BT after BT's "assurances" (sic). Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Jul 31^st, 2006 at 8:36pm by Dave »

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Dave

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Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006
Reply #20 - Jul 31^st, 2006 at 9:58pm

What no-one's mentioned on here yet is how this affects calls to mobile phones. Current daytime prices to the four GSM networks are from 12.4 to 15.4 pence per minute, which means that the minimum charge on these will be 15.5 to 18.5 (calls are rounded up to the nearest half penny). Shocked

For calls to 3 phones, they will cost a minimum of 25p !!!

So all those lovely answerphones that people have on and don't bother to retreive messages when you leave them will cost us dear.

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orsonkart Ex Member	Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006 Reply #21 - Jul 31^st, 2006 at 11:38pm Even more reason to use 18185 calls to any UK mobile network 4p connection,5p a min peak/evenings ,2p a min at weekends.
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Jolly

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Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006
Reply #22 - Aug 1^st, 2006 at 9:59am

Does anyone know what is actually meant by the "call set-up fee"? Is this the time at which the person at the other end answers the call or is this from when their phone starts ringing? I've searched google for a definition but without any luck. I only ask this as BT must have a reason for changing the wording of the charge (and they have a habit of using misleading wording [national call rate, etc!]).

Any thoughts?

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orsonkart

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Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006
Reply #23 - Aug 1^st, 2006 at 10:59am

Jolly wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 9:59am:

Does anyone know what is actually meant by the "call set-up fee"? Is this the time at which the person at the other end answers the call or is this from when their phone starts ringing? I've searched google for a definition but without any luck. I only ask this as BT must have a reason for changing the wording of the charge (and they have a habit of using misleading wording [national call rate, etc!]).

Any thoughts?

Its a connection fee, you dont pay unless your call is answered by someone or something.

Why on earth would any wont to charge you to get a ringing tone. Huh

Thats taking things a little to far is it not.

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Jolly

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Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006
Reply #24 - Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:29am

Quote:

Jolly wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 9:59am:

Does anyone know what is actually meant by the "call set-up fee"? Is this the time at which the person at the other end answers the call or is this from when their phone starts ringing? I've searched google for a definition but without any luck. I only ask this as BT must have a reason for changing the wording of the charge (and they have a habit of using misleading wording [national call rate, etc!]).

Any thoughts?

Its a connection fee, you dont pay unless your call is answered by someone or something.

Why on earth would any wont to charge you to get a ringing tone. Huh

Thats taking things a little to far is it not.

When making calls from a mobile you are charged from when the phone at the other end rings, not from when it is answered. There's no reason, in theory, why a landline call couldn't be charged in this way. This is "why on earth" I asked the question Wink

From what I've seen over the last few years BT have made it a habit to subtly change the terms and phrases they use when the change will eventually be of benefit to themselves. Do you not wonder why they've changed from a "connection charge" to a "call set-up fee"?

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Dave

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Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006
Reply #25 - Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:44am

Jolly wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:29am:

When making calls from a mobile you are charged from when the phone at the other end rings, not from when it is answered. ...

No you are not. You are not charged for the engaged tone, ringing tone or the message telling you that the mobile phone is unavailable.

Voicemail services and O2's CallAlert that sends a text to the receiver are chargeable.

Now that the 'pence per minute' of a call doesn't relate to the actual average pence per minute, would it be misleading for it to be advertised without the "setup fee", or without the same prominance as the "setup fee"?

So when BT states that calls on such and such a package cost "5 pence per minute", that is misleading because the actual cost will include 3p on top. In addition, rounding up to the nearest minute leaves the call rate meaning nothing; it's more a minimum call rate (as shown above).

I hope that makes sense, just wondering if there is any way that they can be caught out with the way they promote these services. Would there be any grounds for a complaint to ASA?

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jrawle

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Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006
Reply #26 - Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:47am

Jolly wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:29am:

When making calls from a mobile you are charged from when the phone at the other end rings, not from when it is answered. There's no reason, in theory, why a landline call couldn't be charged in this way. This is "why on earth" I asked the question Wink

On which mobile network is that? I'm certainly not charged for the phone at the other end ringing. If it goes through to voicemail I'm charged, which is why I hate voicemail.

Charging for the ringing or engaged phone is a scary prospect, although I could see the phone companies moving to this model in the future. It costs them for the use of the network even if the call's not conected - after all, that's why BT are so keen for people to have 1571.

Of course, if you use an indirect service (0844...) to make calls, you are charged for the second ringing tone.

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jrawle

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Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006
Reply #27 - Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:50am

Dave wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:44am:

Now that the 'pence per minute' of a call doesn't relate to the actual average pence per minute, would it be misleading for it to be advertised without the "setup fee", or without the same prominance as the "setup fee"?

So when BT states that calls on such and such a package cost "5 pence per minute", that is misleading because the actual cost will include 3p on top. In addition, rounding up to the nearest minute leaves the call rate meaning nothing; it's more a minimum call rate (as shown above).

I hope that makes sense, just wondering if there is any way that they can be caught out with the way they promote these services. Would there be any grounds for a complaint to ASA?

That's a good point. This situation is quite different to a minimum cost. Now surely it has to say, "Calls cost 3p/min plus 3p call setup fee".

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orsonkart Ex Member	Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006 Reply #28 - Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:58am Jolly wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:29am: When making calls from a mobile you are charged from when the phone at the other end rings, not from when it is answered. What network does that then. None of the UK ones to the best of my knowledge. ~ Quote box tidied up by Dave
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Jolly

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Re: BT cut prices of call packages from 1/8/2006
Reply #29 - Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:59am

jrawle wrote on Aug 1^st, 2006 at 11:47am:

On which mobile network is that? I'm certainly not charged for the phone at the other end ringing. If it goes through to voicemail I'm charged, which is why I hate voicemail.

I'm on Virgin mobile and I pay by direct-debit (not sure the name of the package but there's no monthly charge - just call charges). The last time I checked, which admittedly was about 6 months ago, I was always being charged for calling a number and then hitting the red hang-up button on my phone before the call was answered. I will try this again today and check my bill next month to see if anything has changed...

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