SAYNOTO0870.COM - Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates

derrick

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Re: Yellow Pages: 0845 free on "certain" BT packag
Reply #60 - Mar 4^th, 2010 at 12:15pm

Dave wrote on Mar 4^th, 2010 at 11:46am:

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 12^th, 2010 at 10:22pm:

I trust your complaint has already been logged on the www.asa.org.uk website? Wink

I submitted a complaint to ASA, but they say it's note in their remit as it is "editorial". I submitted a complaint to Consumer Direct which has been passed on to Trading Standards, but CD can give no guarantee that TS will do anything.

No surprise there then

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates
Reply #61 - Mar 4^th, 2010 at 4:46pm

Dave wrote on Mar 4^th, 2010 at 11:46am:

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 12^th, 2010 at 10:22pm:

I trust your complaint has already been logged on the www.asa.org.uk website? Wink

I submitted a complaint to ASA, but they say it's note in their remit as it is "editorial". I submitted a complaint to Consumer Direct which has been passed on to Trading Standards, but CD can give no guarantee that TS will do anything.

I would never condone misleading information or improper promotion of any commercial enterprise. Nothing is totally "free" of everything, however there is an element of truth in the statement that 0845 calls are free" with BT. BT’s standard call plans are designed so that certain calls are free of call charges during the time when the subscriber normally makes calls. Penalty charges apply to such calls at other times (except where regulation prevents the imposition of penalty charges).

In a roundabout way, promulgating the idea that 0845 calls are free with BT does actually help our argument.

When addressing the cost of calling 0845 numbers in the battle against misuse of revenue sharing, it is the unique position of BT, however it is described, that needs to be pointed out to be particular, unusual and at odds with all others.

When 0845 calls are charged for by BT this is at a cheaper rate than calls to geo or 03 numbers. When "free", then geo and 03 calls are charged at the same rate as 0845.

It does not therefore help the battle against misuse of revenue sharing to shout about the cost of calling 0845 numbers from BT. Unless we believe that BT’s charging policy could be overlooked, it is better to leave the impression that it is unique in not imposing a surcharge on calls to 0845 numbers, as others do, rather than pointing out that it offers these calls more cheaply than other calls.

In reviewing the thread, I have not been able to see any reference to the position taken by Yell on the question of how it advises call charges and what it permits its customers to do. If the enquiries I have made yield anything useful, I will pass this on. If anybody else has this information, it would help our discussion to be advised of this.

I will resist the temptation to get drawn into a debate about the possible need for regulatory agencies to be given further powers outside the scope of those which they presently hold.

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Dave

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Re: Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates
Reply #62 - Mar 7^th, 2010 at 12:24am

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Mar 4^th, 2010 at 4:46pm:

I would never condone misleading information or improper promotion of any commercial enterprise. Nothing is totally "free" of everything, however there is an element of truth in the statement that 0845 calls are free" with BT. BT’s standard call plans are designed so that certain calls are free of call charges during the time when the subscriber normally makes calls. Penalty charges apply to such calls at other times (except where regulation prevents the imposition of penalty charges).

In a roundabout way, promulgating the idea that 0845 calls are free with BT does actually help our argument.

The "design" of BT's call plans (and how they are indended to be used) has no bearing on whether this advertisement giving pricing information is misleading or not. The fact that people who pick up the Yellow Pages are likely ring the 0845 numbers during the weekday daytime means that any pricing information should be applicable at that time (unless, perhaps, it states otherwise).

The fact that there are more BT customers paying for their 0845 calls during that period than don't makes this statement incorrect. This is because it is specifically stating that 0845 calls are generally free of per minute call charges during the weekday daytime period.

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates
Reply #63 - Mar 7^th, 2010 at 1:46am

Dave wrote on Mar 7^th, 2010 at 12:24am:

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Mar 4^th, 2010 at 4:46pm:

I would never condone misleading information or improper promotion of any commercial enterprise. Nothing is totally "free" of everything, however there is an element of truth in the statement that 0845 calls are free" with BT. BT’s standard call plans are designed so that certain calls are free of call charges during the time when the subscriber normally makes calls. Penalty charges apply to such calls at other times (except where regulation prevents the imposition of penalty charges).

In a roundabout way, promulgating the idea that 0845 calls are free with BT does actually help our argument.

The "design" of BT's call plans (and how they are indended to be used) has no bearing on whether this advertisement giving pricing information is misleading or not. The fact that people who pick up the Yellow Pages are likely ring the 0845 numbers during the weekday daytime means that any pricing information should be applicable at that time (unless, perhaps, it states otherwise).

The fact that there are more BT customers paying for their 0845 calls during that period than don't makes this statement incorrect. This is because it is specifically stating that 0845 calls are generally free of per minute call charges during the weekday daytime period.

Yes - the statement is misleading and it helps our argument.

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Dave

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Re: Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates
Reply #64 - Mar 7^th, 2010 at 2:57pm

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Mar 7^th, 2010 at 1:46am:

Yes - the statement is misleading and it helps our argument.

I remind you and readers of this thread that it is about the text which appears in the year's Yellow Pages, which I posted previously.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Mar 4^th, 2010 at 4:46pm:

When 0845 calls are charged for by BT this is at a cheaper rate than calls to geo or 03 numbers. When "free", then geo and 03 calls are charged at the same rate as 0845.

It does not therefore help the battle against misuse of revenue sharing to shout about the cost of calling 0845 numbers from BT. Unless we believe that BT’s charging policy could be overlooked, it is better to leave the impression that it is unique in not imposing a surcharge on calls to 0845 numbers, as others do, rather than pointing out that it offers these calls more cheaply than other calls.

From what I gather, you are saying that you agree with me that the YP advertisement is misleading, but you would leave it be.

I do, however, empathise with others who may perhaps read into your posts on this thread that you are happy with the YP wording.

I have yet to understand how it can be that something which is misleading or just plain incorrect (or perhaps even a lie) should ever be regarded as "helping" one's cause because anyone challenging that cause can come along and point out the innaccuracy(ies). In essence, it surely weakens our campaign if we say that the misleading YP advertisement supports us!

In respect to the SAYNOTO0870 campaign in general, the whole reason why we are where we are is because of the obsession with relating quoted call prices to BT - i.e. "local rate" etc. Thus, suggesting that 0845 numbers are "free" or "included in packages" takes this one step further by implying that calls are free when they in fact carry a premium.

The only thing in the YP's favour is that it does say that the charges which it describes are those from BT. It does not imply that calls are free across the market in general.

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« Last Edit: Mar 7^th, 2010 at 2:59pm by Dave »

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates
Reply #65 - Mar 7^th, 2010 at 3:41pm

Dave wrote on Mar 7^th, 2010 at 2:57pm:

From what I gather, you are saying that you agree with me that the YP advertisement is misleading, but you would leave it be.

I only say what I say. This includes my clear statement that
Quote:

I would never condone misleading information or improper promotion of any commercial enterprise.

If Yell can be pursuaded that the statement in question is misleading or improper then it will be changed. We are right to be engaged in efforts to secure such a change. I will advise on anything that I may achieve.

Part of our campaigning efforts are about public perception. This is influenced by the terms of specific statements, but rarely held in such precise language - the exception being when a catchy slogan is picked up. "saynoti0870" has done a great job in causing all "odd" telephone numbers, not just 0870, to be viewed with suspicion. I simply comment that "free from BT" could help in the same way by promoting the idea that BT is unusual in its call charges.

Stressing the further truth that, for most BT customers, weekday daytime 0845 and 0844 calls are cheaper than 01/02/03 cannot help our efforts. One could aruge that because it is true it must be shouted in the same way as any other truth. I disagree.

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« Last Edit: Mar 7^th, 2010 at 3:59pm by SilentCallsVictim »

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Dave

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Re: Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates
Reply #66 - Feb 9^th, 2011 at 2:41pm

I've just received my new "handy size" Yellow Pages and it has filler ads which state "0845 is free to call for BT residential customers on certain call packages only."

This is the same as was last year, although there is no "simple guide to 08 numbers" anymore (which covered a full page). The reason for this could be down to the small size of the latest edition.

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« Last Edit: Feb 9^th, 2011 at 3:00pm by Dave »

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derrick

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Re: Yellow pages 0845 = Local call rates
Reply #67 - Feb 10^th, 2011 at 11:36am

Dave wrote on Feb 9^th, 2011 at 2:41pm:

I've just received my new "handy size" Yellow Pages and it has filler ads which state "0845 is free to call for BT residential customers on certain call packages only."

This is the same as was last year, although there is no "simple guide to 08 numbers" anymore (which covered a full page). The reason for this could be down to the small size of the latest edition.

Yep, and has been done to death before, they are NOT "free" they are inclusive, don't pay a line rental and you get NO calls!

.

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