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When is a pence per min not *the* pence per min? (Read 7,011 times)
Dave
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When is a pence per min not *the* pence per min?
Sep 4th, 2006 at 10:14am
 
BT's latest changes (discussed here) are due to come into effect on 1 October 2006 and will see the introduction of the "call set-up fee" of 3 pence per call and whole minute charging. This has been closely followed by similar changes by Talk Talk which are discussed here.

With whole minute charging and a call set-up fee of 3p, the quoted pence per minute will not bear a true reflection of the total cost of the call. The actual pence per minute will vary according to call length as well as charge rate. I think that this will, potentially, have great implications for the clarity of the pricing information given during the promotion of such telephone services.

An advertisement which states "Calls cost 3 pence per minute from BT landlines" will therefore be incorrect as the cost of the call is, by definition, the total cost. Thus, I feel that this latest change will result in service providers giving misleading pricing information, just like they do with 'local' and 'national' rates for 0845 and 0870 numbers.

Indeed, with the lack of action by the likes of Trading Standards and Advertising Standards Authority, I will not be hanging my hat on people not being confused or completely ignorant of how much they are actually being charged.

The minimum charge for any (chargeable) call is currently 5.5p (previously 5p). For calls to geographical numbers, mobiles and international numbers, whole minute charging will apply, as well as the call set-up fee. This will provide BT with a mechanism by which it can vary the minimum charge of these calls, as well as pushing up their prices.

Where whole minute charging will apply (geographicals, mobile and international calls), the minimum amount that one can pay for a connected call will be the call set-up fee plus amount for the first minute. In all other cases, such as 08xx and 09xx numbers, the minimum will therefore be 3p.

To illustrate how whole minute charging affects this minimum amount, take calls charged at 3 pence per minute. This is the rate for geographical calls during the daytime on BT Together Options 1 and 2. The call will cost 6p and anything over a minute will cost more. Previously, a call to a 3p/min number would cost 5.5p for anything upto 1 minute 50 seconds.

With the 5.5p minimum charge, it's very unlikely that a quick call that goes to a mobile phone answering service where the caller chooses not to leave a message will result in the cost exceeding this minimum. However, when the changes take effect, calls to O2, Vodafone, Orange and T-Mobile numbers will cost 13p/min, meaning that such a call will cost 16p.

Note that BT's terms and conditions leaflet says that, whole minute charging will apply to "local and national geographic calls, international calls, landline-to-mobile calls, premium rate service calls and NTS calls (e.g. 0845, 0870)". This is an error and the only calls where it will apply are UK geographic, mobile and international calls.
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« Last Edit: Sep 6th, 2006 at 1:58pm by Dave »  
 
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bbb_uk
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Re: When is a pence per min not *the* pence per mi
Reply #1 - Sep 4th, 2006 at 12:36pm
 
Dave wrote on Sep 4th, 2006 at 10:14am:
An advertisement which states "Calls cost 3 pence per minute from BT landlines" will therefore be incorrect as the cost of the call is, by definition, the total cost. Thus, I feel that this latest change will result in service providers giving misleading pricing information, just like they do with 'local' and 'national' rates for 0845 and 0870 numbers.
Is it misleading though because if they state that to call them costs 3p/min from a BT landline which is correct then the way I see it then it is still correct and not misleading simply because they are saying how much the call costs per minute which based purely on that, is true.

If, on the other hand, it was a fixed fee like you can get on some premium rate numbers then that, I believe, would be misleading.  For example, if you called an automated system where the cost of the call can easily be determined and the advert said something like "call us on 0123 456 7891.  Calls will cost 3p per call from a BT landline..." would be misleading if the call lasted only a minute (or upto a minute) as they are specifically stating the cost of the whole call is 3p when in fact it would be 3p for one minute and the 3p connection fee, making it actually 6p for the call.

The difference is where they state per minute or per call as the latter one would have to include the full price of the call including any possible connection fee whereas the per minute is just conveying that the cost is 3p per minute which is technically correct.
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jrawle
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Re: When is a pence per min not *the* pence per mi
Reply #2 - Sep 4th, 2006 at 5:38pm
 
bbb_uk wrote on Sep 4th, 2006 at 12:36pm:
The difference is where they state per minute or per call as the latter one would have to include the full price of the call including any possible connection fee whereas the per minute is just conveying that the cost is 3p per minute which is technically correct.

I disagree. If it says "Calls cost..." then that suggests it is the total cost of the call. The only way for it to be correct is for it to say "Calls cost 3p per minute plus 3p connection fee". I'm sure I've seen cost of calls from NTL lines quoted as such.

If apples are advertised in the supermarket as "£1 per kilogram" but when you go to pay for them, they add an extra £1 to the price, you would quite rightly argue that the pricing was misleading. Yet by your argument, this is acceptable because it says "per kilogram", and they can add whatever they like to the total price without it being misleading.
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Re: When is a pence per min not *the* pence per mi
Reply #3 - Sep 4th, 2006 at 6:37pm
 
jrawle wrote on Sep 4th, 2006 at 5:38pm:
I disagree. If it says "Calls cost..." then that suggests it is the total cost of the call. The only way for it to be correct is for it to say "Calls cost 3p per minute plus 3p connection fee". I'm sure I've seen cost of calls from NTL lines quoted as such.
It depends on how you read it - it's open to interpretation if you ask me.  I can see where you are coming from with the "Calls cost..." but even before the Whole Minute Charging and Call Connection Fee changes that means, going by your interpretation, that adverts that specified the cost of the call could have been misleading from the beginning because if it was a quick one minute call then the minimum call charge of 5.5p meant that the advert (as such) was also misleading as the cost of the call would have been 5.5p and not 3p/min.

Quote:
If apples are advertised in the supermarket as "£1 per kilogram" but when you go to pay for them, they add an extra £1 to the price, you would quite rightly argue that the pricing was misleading. Yet by your argument, this is acceptable because it says "per kilogram", and they can add whatever they like to the total price without it being misleading.
I agree (nice example!)  Wink

The problem is that the ASA, I don't think, will force normal (currently) non-broadcast adverts to specifically add that the call cost is also subject to a connection charge as well as the cost of the call.

You are right that NTL (and TW) do state that their (expensive) calls are subject to a 6p connection fee but that is because they as the supplier/provider of your landline have to mention this but getting the ASA, as mentioned above, to have all other adverts mention this will be near impossible.

ASA will probably use excuses like "limited" space to fit all this extra info on as that is the excuse they use now with regards to TV and radio adverts bearing in mind that TV adverts have a much wider audience and therefore more detriment is caused.
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Dave
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Re: When is a pence per min not *the* pence per mi
Reply #4 - Sep 4th, 2006 at 8:19pm
 
bbb_uk wrote on Sep 4th, 2006 at 12:36pm:
If, on the other hand, it was a fixed fee like you can get on some premium rate numbers then that, I believe, would be misleading.  For example, if you called an automated system where the cost of the call can easily be determined and the advert said something like "call us on 0123 456 7891.  Calls will cost 3p per call from a BT landline..." would be misleading if the call lasted only a minute (or upto a minute) as they are specifically stating the cost of the whole call is 3p when in fact it would be 3p for one minute and the 3p connection fee, making it actually 6p for the call.

That's an interesting point, I haven't thought of that. So these TV quizzes that are charging 60p or 75p per call, for example, will now have to change their pricing information to 63p and 78p, respectively. How can it be right that a company which chooses a pricing point for its service have this change forced upon it?

jrawle wrote on Sep 4th, 2006 at 5:38pm:
bbb_uk wrote on Sep 4th, 2006 at 12:36pm:
The difference is where they state per minute or per call as the latter one would have to include the full price of the call including any possible connection fee whereas the per minute is just conveying that the cost is 3p per minute which is technically correct.

I disagree. If it says "Calls cost..." then that suggests it is the total cost of the call. The only way for it to be correct is for it to say "Calls cost 3p per minute plus 3p connection fee". I'm sure I've seen cost of calls from NTL lines quoted as such.

If it says "The charge rate is 3p/min from BT landlines" I may be more inclined to accept it, although I'd much prefer that it makes mention of the call set-up charge as well. But, as I said, the cost of a call is the total cost.

The thing is that it is the service provider that provides the pricing information and it is the service provider that is responsible for its accuracy, and not BT or Ofcom. Thus, if it's incorrect or potentially misleading it is the service provider that may be liable for prosecution. I would therefore assume that even though BT are to change the rules, that this will still be the case that the service provider will be liable.

bbb_uk wrote on Sep 4th, 2006 at 6:37pm:
[...] I can see where you are coming from with the "Calls cost..." but even before the Whole Minute Charging and Call Connection Fee changes that means, going by your interpretation, that adverts that specified the cost of the call could have been misleading from the beginning because if it was a quick one minute call then the minimum call charge of 5.5p meant that the advert (as such) was also misleading as the cost of the call would have been 5.5p and not 3p/min.

The vast majority of calls to 08 and 09 NGNs will cost more than the minimum, whereas all calls will include the connection fee. These are in distinct contrast to each other and I think that this is the relevant fact here.

What it boils down to and the main reason I started this thread is to discuss the how these changes affect legitamacy of pricing information. It's one thing having telcos provide accurate pricing information, but how can you legislate to keep service provider's pricing information up to date?
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Re: When is a pence per min not *the* pence per mi
Reply #5 - Oct 27th, 2006 at 12:20am
 
Now I'm thoroughly confused!  With 18185, you know there's a 4p connection fee as soon as you dial the final digit, whether or not the call connects.  So with full-minute charging, a 61-second call to Canada would cost 4p (connection) + 3 minutes at ½ppm = 1½p erm, make it 2p, so 6p.  And if the phone isn't answered or the call can't be connected, I'm still charged the 4p.  Still, 18185 cuts you off after 3 hours so I get cut off twice during my 8-hour phone calls, so that's 3 calls at 4p connection + 480 minutes at ½ppm, 12+240p=£2.52.

My point here is not to compare prices of 18185 vs BT here (I'm sure that's been done more exhaustively elsewhere on this site), but to illustrate knowledge and transparency.  With BT charging a 3p connection fee, does it work the same way?  If the remote line is busy (engaged), do I still get charged?  That would be a huge shift for BT.

I've just signed up for one of Deltaphone's 0871 numbers (781 3343 if I'm lucky).  Does this mean that' BT's minimum call charge to that number will be 13p?  And if they get the 12-second 1571 message on my normal landline, that, 1571 message included, is 61-120 seconds long, they'll be charged 23p?  (Given who'll be getting the 0871 number, my heart doesn't exactly bleed at this structure for them.)  Still, given the general 08* deception that's pervaded since 0345 and 0990 were switched over, who's to know any different?

If someone phones my normal landline number, which is 028 (or 048) 90xx xxxx, and gets my 1571 and hangs up, is the charge 3p+5½p, ie 8½p?  And if they hang up before 1571 kicks in, are they still charged the 3p?  Too much ambiguity, and now that BT's been giving an aggregate cost per number, you have no idea what an individual call costs, unless you only make one cal to that number during your billing period.

Kain
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Dave
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Re: When is a pence per min not *the* pence per mi
Reply #6 - Oct 27th, 2006 at 2:40pm
 
OverlordKain wrote on Oct 27th, 2006 at 12:20am:
Now I'm thoroughly confused!  With 18185, you know there's a 4p connection fee as soon as you dial the final digit, whether or not the call connects. ...

You don't get charged until the call is answered with BT and 1-prefix providers like 18185.

OverlordKain wrote on Oct 27th, 2006 at 12:20am:
... So with full-minute charging, a 61-second call to Canada would cost 4p (connection) + 3 minutes at ½ppm = 1½p erm, make it 2p, so 6p. ...

A 61 second call to Canada will cost 4p connection charge plus 1p (2 minutes at half a pence), so the total is 5p.

OverlordKain wrote on Oct 27th, 2006 at 12:20am:
... If the remote line is busy (engaged), do I still get charged?  That would be a huge shift for BT.

You don't get charged if you are with BT and the line is engaged. But the thing is that answering services like 1571 and mobile voicemail answers the call and thereby charging the caller.

OverlordKain wrote on Oct 27th, 2006 at 12:20am:
I've just signed up for one of Deltaphone's 0871 numbers (781 3343 if I'm lucky).  Does this mean that' BT's minimum call charge to that number will be 13p? ...

No, because anarchical whole minute charging 'only' applies to calls to geographical numbers, mobile numbers and international calls when making a call with BT. There will be a minimum charge of 5.5p (see here).

OverlordKain wrote on Oct 27th, 2006 at 12:20am:
... If someone phones my normal landline number, which is 028 (or 048) 90xx xxxx, and gets my 1571 and hangs up, is the charge 3p+5½p, ie 8½p?  And if they hang up before 1571 kicks in, are they still charged the 3p?

The minimum charge when calling a geographical number (at 3 p/min) is 6p.

OverlordKain wrote on Oct 27th, 2006 at 12:20am:
... Too much ambiguity, and now that BT's been giving an aggregate cost per number, you have no idea what an individual call costs, unless you only make one cal to that number during your billing period.

As someone who follows these things quite closely, I'm finding it difficult to keep up and be sure that my interpretation is correct.

Another thing to bear in mind is call rounding, which doesn't necessarily affect minimum length calls:
Quote:
CALL CHARGE ROUNDING - RESIDENTIAL CUSTOMERS
Operative Date:01.10.2006

Each call charge will be rounded up to half a penny, except for calls to Number Translation Services (NTS) which will be rounded up to a tenth of a penny. Calls to mobiles using NTS will be rounded up to half a penny. The total call bill will then be rounded up to the next whole penny before VAT is added. VAT will be calculated up to the next whole penny. Fixed fee prices where duration charges do not apply, will be rounded up to the nearest tenth of a penny.

These roundings appear to be before VAT is added. As we tend to think of prices including VAT, it adds a source for confusion when working out what the actual cost is.
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