NGMsGhost wrote on Jul 25^th, 2007 at 3:35pm:
I wonder what meaning they have for the word "premium?"

I have located and spoken to Mr Sefton of Leeds, who described on The Times website that he and his wife were dismissed from their surgery.   The dismissal is described by the doctor as due to his abusive behaviour and he acknowledges that he may have loosened his self control momentarily.   It appears that he was put under severe provocation by the surgery as he tried to complain about their use of an 0844 number.

Following his attempt to register his complaint he received a letter from his doctor telling him that he was removed from their list of patients and I quote : ---
" The receptionist who dealt with your query tried to explain our current practice appointments policy, but clearly you were not prepared to listen to her.   I personally explained to you that the 0844 number is not a premium rate number and that the practice itself makes no profit from the very small extra charge over and above the standard BT rate."

You could well imagine how this conversation must have gone which no doubt lead to utter frustration on the part of Mr Sefton.   It is a sad and disturbing tale.   Mr Sefton will not call 0844 numbers on principle, nor 0870, 0871, 0845 or any equivalents and I belive he may have told his doctor that.

If this is how doctors are now treating patients well into their 70s who try to complain directly about 0844, then no wonder trust and respect for doctors is rapidly deteriorating and soon they may be seen on an even lower professional level than estate agents and journalists (-- sorry that may be an insult to estate agents and journalists).   

GPs are already being referred to as greedy, profit seeking, disgraceful, rip-off merchants, overpaid, immoral and unprincipled by numerous people in recent days.    How bad will it have to get before the BMA, the GMC and the DoH do something to halt the extreme damage that use of 0844 numbers is causing?????  And then what about Ofcon getting a grip on this issue?   Any chance???

A few more comments on The Times website :  ----

It's all of a piece with hospitals installing phones by the bedside which cost the earth to access. To make things worse, when you phone your ailing friend you have to listen to, and pay for, a needlessly long spoken introduction. Needless to say, the charges are similar when your friend phones out.
Who invents these schemes? To profiteer from the sick and the isolated is immoral.
I can remember a time (actually within living memory!) when we had a health service to be proud of. Hospitals were clean. Nurses nursed instead of gossipping round a "nursing station." Hospital acquired infections were rare. In hospital, one felt as safe as the technology made possible.
How did it all go so badly wrong?
Michael Bruce, Selby, Yorkshire

My surgery doesn't use an expensive code, it uses our local area code. They also listen to patients' views and have a policy of acting on patients wishes with regard to privacy and surgery availability. I am sure that if they considered an 0844 code, they would ask us beforehand and act accordingly. It couldn't be any better if it tried.
Jennifer Hynes, Plymouth, England

Although BT calls are charged at 3p per minute- BT also charge a 'Call Set Up' fee of 3p. So a one minute call from BT costs 6p, but a one minute call to an 0844 number only costs 5p. It's swings and roundabouts. I would be happy to pay a slightly higher call charge for an improved service like this.
Most places you call nowadays have an 0844/0845 number.
Liz Kerr, Leicester,

loddon wrote on Jul 25^th, 2007 at 8:46pm:

No they don't.
And the fact that most people used to use children to clean chimneys did not make it right.
Scamming people by using a rate that rides round the rules to trick people into calling revenue sharing numbers is wrong.
WRONG.

Quote:

Don't make "any profit". How noble of you Dr Ramsbottom. So where do the call charges go that put this call over and above the price of an 01/02 call? Then in point 3 you refer to it as an "income", thus you are receiving something (the phone system) which you would have otherwise had to pay for out of your budget, leaving you with money to spend elsewhere. You have mentioned "profit" (and lack thereof) to cover the fact that you are really benefitting covertly at callers' direct expense and you consider this quite acceptable.

And the cost to your patients varies. A landline user will pay anything from 2 to 5 pence per minute on top of what they pay to 01/02 numbers. Mobile users pay anything upto 40p/min and those who have to call from a BT Payphone pay more than 10 times the price of an 01/02 call.

Now consider how much your callers actually pay to your 0844 in addition to what they paid when you used an 01/02 number. Aside from the fact that you are forcing them to pay for your new phone system, does the cost really reflect what the system is worth? If you receive 2p/min which you pass onto your providers (which I understand is a typical amount that surgeries receive), then the telco providing the 0844 which (presumably) the system's supplier appoints, keeps most of the other 3p/min. A small amount will be retained by the telco that the caller is with to carry the call.

So it is not even a case of your surgery using 2p/min of incoming call charges to finance the system. At 2p/min on a 40p/min or even 10p/min call, 2p/min is a tiny amount and reflects the inefficient way of being paid revenue from your callers [patients].

Moreso, the price of a system (product) such as this is usually determined by market forces. Supermarkets offer different ranges (brands) of the same type of product which usually vary in price. The price you (the customer) pays is the price on the shelf. It's clear to see and there is a competitive element which helps drive down prices and thus reduce "excessive" profit by the manufacturer (some may disagree with this, put in principal this is what happens for the good of the consumer).

With these telephone systems and with so-called revenue sharing NTS numbers this doesn't really exist because the pratice is the customer and gets patients to subsidise the phone system through an extremely inefficient transaction where telcos must be raking it in!

BTW, Dr Ramsbottom practices at Nevells Road Surgery in Letchworth.

And now in the Norwich Evening News   http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=ENOnline&category=N...  

GPs criticised for costly phone numbers


26 July 2007 09:23

Doctor's surgeries have been criticised by patients for switching their phone numbers to expensive 0844 dialling codes.

While the numbers are not premium rate, they can cost up to 5p per minute for people who have call plans which would otherwise allow them inexpensive or free local calls.

Campaigners have called for an end to the practice saying it is unfair. The specialist surgery telephone service is used by several medical centres in Norfolk, including Costessey Medical Practice and Acle Medical Centre and costs 5p per minute.

Today, Jan Hardinge, practice manager at Costessey, said: “The only place you would pay more is when you have got a supplier where you get local calls included and they don't pick it up as a local call. Suppliers of price plans need to recognise 0844 numbers are local and put them in all-inclusive calls.”

Grace Yorke, of Acle Medical Centre, said: “We can't take into consideration what some people may or may not have in their own personal arrangements. The fact is we wouldn't charge any more than a local call.”

Telephone service provider Network Europe Group (NEG) argues the 0844 numbers allow surgeries to queue calls and divert them to a number of extensions so that patients are not just stuck with an engaged tone.

However, Joyce Robins, co-director of Patient Concern, said: “It is quite ridiculous. People should not pay more for their calls to their GP. It can be very difficult to get through to your surgery in some cases and you can run up quite a bill.”

Ü What do you think of the 0844 numbers? Write to Evening News Letters, Prospect House, Rouen Road, Norwich, NR1 1RE, email eveningnewsletters@ archant.co.uk or visit www.evening news24.co.uk/forums

Quote:

What planet is Ms Hardinge living on? 

Yes, of course. She expects telephone companies (who originate calls) to pick up the tab and make a loss or increase their prices because she has chosen a revenue generating number. Pure greed and stupidity on this pratice's part!!!

Quote:

Err, so why have you moved from an 01/02 number? Did you do some research or did you let yourself be brainwashed by your service provider (NEG??) ?