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NEG propaganda (Read 752,937 times)

SilentCallsVictim

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #360 - Sep 17^th, 2007 at 10:44pm

NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 17^th, 2007 at 5:23pm:

derrick wrote on Sep 17^th, 2007 at 3:46pm:

… this option was discussed at length with Telewest on Wednesday … I am also meeting with BT …

If the contract is with Telewest the penalties for breaking it are probably less horrendous than with NEG … … lies about 0844 being local rate or low cost call until lethargic Ofcom finally … makes it illegal to make such claims about 0844 numbers.

It is good to see a positive approach being taken by this surgery. It could become a model for the many other surgeries who (we hope) will have to go through a similar process. I hope that all alternative providers will be alerted to the sizeable business opportunity that they may have.

Recent incomplete research that identified 498 GP numbers advertised on the NHS website has been extended to confirm that 469 of these are in ranges allocated to Opal Telecom Limited (part of the Carphone Warehouse Group) - 0844: 477, 499, 815 and 844.

The relevant Ofcom publication classifies these as "Special Services basic rate" - the proper (meaningless) term to be used in place of those used to deliberately misrepresent the likely and potential cost to callers.

We may reasonably assume that NEG is an agent of Opal (or something equivalent). Whilst the precise terms of any such arrangement are commercially confidential, it would be interesting to know if either party is prepared to be open about the general nature of the relationship.

Charles Dunstone may like to tell us how much money he is making out of doctors and their patients. This doubtless helped him to pay the paltry fine imposed earlier this year for making Silent Calls. (This connection is totally coincidental so far as I am concerned.)

Whilst only parliament may make law, Ofcom has introduced regulatory constraints covering the way in which telecommunications services are marketed by providers and their agents. These supplement general statutory provisions. There is no reason why Ofcom could not investigate any provider found to be breaching these regulations and take appropriate enforcement action. Ofcom would however normally only be driven to investigate following complaints from the consumers involved (i.e. the doctors).

Members may wish to look into the specific Ofcom regulations that may been breached. It would also be interesting to see a table of the call charges imposed by various providers for the ranges of numbers listed above.

A list of the mobile networks that allow them to be part of inclusive packages would be of particular interest. Wink

It would be good to know if someone could come forward with a better deal for NHS GPs who want to offer improved telephone services to patients without having to set aside the essential principles of the NHS. The subject of this thread explicitly invites such an offer from NEG.

David

P.S. Winking smiley added to indicate irony.

« Last Edit: Sep 17^th, 2007 at 11:56pm by SilentCallsVictim »

@fairtelecoms (tweets)

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NGMsGhost

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #361 - Sep 17^th, 2007 at 10:51pm

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Sep 17^th, 2007 at 10:44pm:

Members may wish to look into the specific Ofcom regulations that may been breached. It would also be interesting to see a table of the call charges imposed by various providers for the ranges of numbers listed above.

A list of the mobile networks that allow them to be part of inclusive packages would be of particular interest.

No mobile operator includes 0844 numbers in their bundled minutes packages full stop.

Ditto no inclusive minutes landline packages include 0844 numbers in the deal either.

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Dave

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Media: Premium wait
Reply #362 - Sep 18^th, 2007 at 10:29am

Source: Yorkshire Evening Post
Published: 31 August 2007

Quote:

Premium wait

By Mark Hookham
Polticial Editor

THOUSANDS of Wakefield patients will have to pay more to speak to their family doctor.

At least eight GP surgeries have abandoned area code numbers for 0844 numbers. They are up to 4p a minute more expensive to call from a standard BT landline and can cost up to 35p a minute on a mobile.

The surgeries have ignored the advice of Wakefield Primary Care Trust in switching.

Local health bosses are now coming under increased pressure from the government to ensure that patients do not have to pay higher telephone charges.

Around 1,200 practices across the country have switched to "0844" numbers.

Rather than paying the 3p a minute local rate at peak times and 1p a minute off-peak from a standard BT landline, callers to an 0844 number pay a flat fee of 5p a minute.

Nearly all mobile phone and landline operators exclude 0844 numbers from free minutes available with fixed-price contracts. Mobile operators charge contract and pay-as-you-go customers between 15p and 35p per minute to call the prefix at all times.

There are fears that pensioners and others with chronic illness or disability who have to contact their surgery regularly will run up higher bills.

Doctors contacted by the YEP refused to discuss the move, but one of the largest suppliers of 0844 phone lines, Network Europe Group, said that the service allows patients to wait in a queue or leave messages instead of simply receiving an engaged tone.
The 0844 numbers ease congestion and cost patients less overall because they do not spend as long on the phone, the spokesman said.

At last, a report that states call costs correctly and doesn't imply "local rate"! I'll overlook the fact that it is claimed that it is claimed to be 1p/min off-peak.

How exactly can the system "cost patients less overall"? Less than what? Less than getting the engaged tone and redialling???!!!

If you are in a queue, you are paying for it. With the call rate being higher than with a 01/02 number, then the total call cost must be more.

The article goes on to say:
Quote:

"The 0844 is not a premium-rate number and whilst we are able to advise GPs, they are independent contractors, and it is down to them to decide what is in their patients' best interests."

But it is not acceptable because GPs are charging patients!

Another similar story from nearby Horsforth from YEP's sister paper here.

« Last Edit: Sep 18^th, 2007 at 10:49am by Dave »

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derrick

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #363 - Sep 18^th, 2007 at 10:34am

NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 17^th, 2007 at 5:23pm:

If the contract is with Telewest the penalties for breaking it are probably less horrendous than with NEG and also Telewest are more susceptible to being embarassed by adverse publicity on this issue. Whereas NEG being a hardened bunch of unashamed scammers will just keep shouting their lies about 0844 being local rate or low cost call until lethargic Ofcom finally gets off its big fat overpaid corporate ass and finally makes it illegal to make such claims about 0844 numbers.

But don't forget that if they have been mislead re the cost of these calls, they could have redress under the Consumer Protection Act 1987 (part III) misleading price indications

Under the Consumer Protection Act 1987, it is an offence to give misleading price
indications to consumers, and the maximum penalty is an unlimited fine. Liability
can extend to the business which provided the number, if they gave incorrect pricing
information to the advertiser.

In addition, where Special Services have been marketed to businesses in a
misleading way, the business customer may be entitled to cancel the contract and to
claim compensation (which could include the cost of re-printing business stationery).

« Last Edit: Oct 9^th, 2007 at 6:42pm by DaveM »

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Dave

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Article in British Medical Journal
Reply #364 - Sep 18^th, 2007 at 11:12am

Source: http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/335/7619/534-a
Published: 15 September 2007

Quote:

GPs and patients clash over use of premium rate phone lines

Adrian O'Dowd

Margate

GPs in the United Kingdom are being urged to consider dropping the use of 0844 phone numbers for their practices, which campaigners say force patients to pay a premium rate for the calls.

Doctors' leaders, however, have hit back at the accusations, saying that GPs are not making a profit from the lines and that they have improved patients' access.

Concerns are growing about the extra costs to patients who contact practices that have switched their surgery phone numbers from local geographical codes to the 0844 code. These codes are more expensive, say patients' groups and the "Say No to 0870" website (http://saynoto870.com), which campaigns against the use of premium rate codes such as 0870, 0844, and 0845. The website has begun a petition to prevent the use of such numbers by general practices and out of hours GP services.

…

Responses to this article can be found here.

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Dave

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #365 - Sep 18^th, 2007 at 12:03pm

Source: Craven Herald
Published: Monday 5th February 2007

Quote:

Wharfe MP warns of GP practices using costly phone lines

SOME GP practices are forcing the most vulnerable people to fork out for expensive phone calls to make appointments to see their doctors, MPs have been told.

Shipley MP Philip Davies - whose constituency includes Burley-in-Wharfedale, Baildon and Menston - told the Commons almost a dozen practices covered by Bradford and Airedale Primary Care Trust were using an 0844 telephone number in their practices.

According to British Telecom, prices for calls to the line can range from 4p to 10p per minute - higher than the price of a regular local telephone call.

Mr Davies asked the Government to make a statement over the use of 0844, 0845 and 0870 numbers after he was told of constituents' concerns.

Responding, Commons Leader Jack Straw said: "I am aware that those numbers are charged at a slightly higher rate, depending on which precise exchange number is used."

He also said he would be speaking to Health Secretary Patricia Hewitt about the concerns.

[…]

A spokesman for Bradford and Airedale Teaching PCT said: "It is a matter for individual GP practices to decide what phone numbers to use. However, we would always encourage them to act in the best interests of their patients and we are not aware of any practice in the district using any of the banned high cost numbers.

[…]

Full details of Philip Davies MP's statement in the Commons is available on his website here.

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derrick

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #366 - Sep 25^th, 2007 at 9:40am

Further response from Louise Fowler,(Ashton Health Centre);-

Dear Mr

Thank you for your continued communication regarding the practice telephone system.

I can confirm that we have met with Telewest our current supplier and discussed with them the issues you have raised in your letter. Telewest are pursuing on our behalf other alternatives to our current telephone system however they appreciate that we need to retain the same functionality as the existing system due to the size and complexity of the organisation. The Health Care Manager for Telewest has been made aware of the concerns and is also pursuing them within the organisation especially with regards to the political stance. We are expecting feedback from her in the next couple of weeks with an option appraisal.

In addition we have met with BT and discussed with them our needs, the gentleman we met with was not a specialist in the health care sector and therefore has referred our requirements to another colleague; we are awaiting dates for a further meeting with him.

As you can see we have taken on board your complaints and are actively looking at alternative options.

I will of course keep you updated of progress.

Kind regards

Louise Fowler

Practice Manager

Am I being naive here ? is it not just a case of supplying the underlying 01 number?

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ultra1984

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #367 - Sep 26^th, 2007 at 4:33pm

Hi NGMsGHOST.

I know it's a bit late but I have only just seen the PM you sent me about the article in the Telegraph and contacting them. I cannot PM you as I haven't done 5 posting, Thanks anyway I would have been interested in talking to him. It cost me £5 that month I contacted the surgery but they never offered me the money back. Yes you were right I was upset.

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NGMsGhost

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #368 - Sep 26^th, 2007 at 7:09pm

There is a way to have the forum alert you automatically by email if you get a PM by changing the setting in your Member Profile to get the forum to do this. Unfortunately it is turned off by default whereas in my view it should be turned on by default and only turned off if the member if they do not want the feature. A way to overcome the restriction on sending PMs if you don't have 5 posts is to make another 4 posts though. However the last time I checked I thought you had to have 30 posts to send a PM but may be they lowered the number required.

As to the newspaper article its a shame you weren't available at the time as the guy at The Times was very keen to cover real people who had exprienced the doctors surgery overcharge issue.

I hope you have signed the 10 Downing Street website petition against these numbers at:-

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/NGN-use-by-GPs/

Now in Position number 18 by size with 9,486 signatures.

loddon was the main forum member here organising the contact with The Times journalist. Perhaps he can think of another angle to let the journalist cover the story again and give your case a mention.

« Last Edit: Oct 9^th, 2007 at 6:37pm by DaveM »

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ultra1984 Newbie Offline Posts: 4	Re: NEG propaganda Reply #369 - Sep 26^th, 2007 at 7:31pm I have fillled it in but have not had an E-mail come through to comfim. I don't know why. Not doing very well am I. LOL
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ultra1984 Newbie Offline Posts: 4	Re: NEG propaganda Reply #370 - Sep 26^th, 2007 at 7:44pm NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 26^th, 2007 at 7:09pm: There is a way to have the forum alert you automatically by email if you get a PM by changing the setting in your Member Profile to get the forum to do this. Unfortunately it is turned off by default . . . . Yes I forgot to set it to e-mail me to let me know!
Back to top	« Last Edit: Oct 9^th, 2007 at 6:39pm by DaveM » IP Logged

NGMsGhost

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #371 - Sep 26^th, 2007 at 8:19pm

I always get the emails back and I have signed up to about 60 different petitions on the site. Shocked

However it has been known for some nanny state ISPs like AOL, TalkTalk etc to filter out the 10 Downing Street confirmation messages as Spam. Or may be you have a Spam filtering program on your PC that is doing this.

Try setting all spam filters to off and signing up again and you may perhaps then get the confirmation email.

« Last Edit: Oct 9^th, 2007 at 6:40pm by DaveM »

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derrick Supreme Member Offline Posts: 1,124	Re: NEG propaganda Reply #372 - Oct 2^nd, 2007 at 11:30am Received the following this morning;- Thank you for this email which I received this morning, I have not received in previously. I can confirm we are now actively pursuing the "03" telephone number option, I will of course keep you updated of the programme. Kind regards Louise Fowler Practice Manager
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idb

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #373 - Oct 4^th, 2007 at 12:30am

http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=231771&command=dis...

PATIENT'S FURY AT 'CASH CON' SURGERY CALLS

00:30 - 04 October 2007

<<
Three doctors' surgeries in the Forest use premium rate 0844 telephone numbers which cost callers at least 5p per minute.If patients contact these numbers using a mobile - and many people only have a mobile - they have to pay at least £1.77 - an extortionate amount - for a five-minute call.

Businessman Clive Dunning who lives with his wife Sue in Rodley, is incensed at the use of these premium rate telephone numbers everywhere.

"The government and health services use them and most people don't realise what it costs to ring," he said.

"It is nothing but a con and it costs even more because of the automated responses you have to go through, which rack up the time.

"Services and businesses try to persuade us that it's only the same as a local call, but many people with a landline or a mobile get free calls.

"We all have to pay to use these premium numbers.

"I warned my business suppliers we would no longer use them unless they gave me a landline for contact. They soon come up with one!

"It is dishonest for anyone to use these numbers without clear information as to the cost."

Three surgeries in the Forest use 0844 numbers which cost 5p a minute from a landline and 30p from mobiles - Forest Healthcare in Cinderford, Severnbank Surgery in Lydney and The Health Centre in Coleford.

When The Forester finally got through to the receptionist at Severnbank, which took two minutes of messages and musak, practice manager Carolyn Thomas said the system and number had been introduced to make diverting out of hours calls simpler.

But she did not realise that inward calls from mobiles cost so much.

"The government was keen for us to get an automated system," she said, "and to get that, we had to have a premium number. The truth

"I have checked with our suppliers (NEG????!!) and they say it is possible to include specific 0844 numbers in free calls but people have to ask their provider. LIES, LIES, LIES!

"We have only had an odd complaint about the cost but we will look at it. I had no idea that it could cost so much."

A call to Forest Healthcare in Cinderford was much longer, taking five minutes to get through, only to find that the practice manager was too busy to talk to us.

And Bridget Docking, practice manager at Coleford, refused to discuss the subject. That's UK democracy for you!
>>

« Last Edit: Oct 4^th, 2007 at 1:00am by idb »

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.

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Dave

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #374 - Oct 4^th, 2007 at 10:06am

Quote:

"I have checked with our suppliers (NEG????!!) and they say it is possible to include specific 0844 numbers in free calls but people have to ask their provider. LIES, LIES, LIES!

Of course it's possible for them to be included by telcos......they would be making a loss though. They would be making a loss to pay the surgeries (to pay for their phone systems). The money doesn't come out of thin air. Is Ms Thomas really fit to be a practice manager?

Quote:

"We have only had an odd complaint about the cost but we will look at it. I had no idea that it could cost so much."

Ms Thomas, did you do any research? Roll Eyes

« Last Edit: Oct 4^th, 2007 at 10:09am by Dave »

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