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NEG propaganda (Read 752,333 times)

Keith Senior Member Offline Posts: 378 Surrey Gender:	Re: NEG propaganda Reply #540 - Apr 27^th, 2008 at 4:12pm I'm awaiting feedback still from Surrey PALs on the use of 0870 numbers to contact Doctors from abroad. Will feedback when I have it. However what exactly is the position now with the DofH response on the use of 0844? What was the exact response and what are the PCTs going to do? Anyone know?
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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #541 - Apr 27^th, 2008 at 5:55pm

Keith wrote on Apr 27^th, 2008 at 4:12pm:

what are the PCTs going to do? Anyone know?

One suspects that the PCTs will do what they are told, despite the fact that the Prime Minister says that they have all the necessary expertise and authority in respect of the "local national" health service. [PM reply to e-petition]

The Department of Health was expecting to complete its gathering of evidence and views by the end of March 2008. Following this, it was to consider whether further action was necessary. No timescale was set for the duration of the consideration or the necessary action. [Letter from Mark Britnell 3 March 2008]

This is inevitably a slow process. These "considerations" are probably continuing. I believe that the DH and the PCTs, and perhaps some others, know that they have made a bad mistake in failing to understand the consequences of allowing and adopting costly revenue sharing numbers. Responsibility (blame) is respectively being passed down and up. An overnight resolution will not be easy to achieve, because of many factors. With the 60th anniversary of the NHS approaching, it must however be in place by 5 July.

As this is a national issue for the National Health Service, a resolution will have to come from the Secretary of State for Health, Alan Johnson. He has already indicated his intention to stop this. [Hull Daily Mail article]

Johnson must be pressed to honour his promise.

@fairtelecoms (tweets)

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NGMsGhost Supreme Member Offline The Forum Ghost of NonGeographicalMan<b r /> Posts: 2,720 Surrey, United Kingdom Gender:	Re: NEG propaganda Reply #542 - Apr 27^th, 2008 at 6:07pm SilentCallsVictim wrote on Apr 27^th, 2008 at 5:55pm: An overnight resolution will not be easy to achieve, because of many factors. With the 60th anniversary of the NHS approaching, it must however be in place by 5 July. I could have sworn I just saw a pig flying by my window out here in the Surrey countryside.
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idb

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #543 - Apr 28^th, 2008 at 10:37pm

http://www.thisishertfordshire.co.uk/news/newsindex/display.var.2231368.0.surger...

Surgery denies premium rate claims
By Alexandra Barham

<<
A DOCTOR'S surgery has denied claims that it is using a premium rate phone number to fund its services.

Parkbury House Surgery in St Peters Street, St Albans appears to have turned a blind eye to guidance from Department of Health which urges practices using expensive revenue sharing phone numbers to switch to cheaper landlines.

It is the only surgery in the district to use a phone number with a 0844 prefix, which will cost patients more to ring and could earn the practice a rebate of 2p per minute on incoming calls.

Instead of paying three-and-a-quarter pence per minute for calls to landlines, patients will be charged up to 5p per minute, and up to 40p per minute from a mobile.

But practice manager Andrew Stennett said the 0844 number was introduced last October following months of consultation with patients who complained of a constant engaged tone when trying to book appointments over the phone.

He said the new automated system enables customers to book appointments easily and efficiently just by using their telephone keypad with the premium rate number covering rental and maintenance fees.

He denied allegations that money from patient calls contributed towards costs of the surgery's facilities.

He said: "Patients wanted us to do something about telephone access - this automated system was a way of improving that service.

"The new telephone system enables patients to phone in between 6.30 in the morning and 9.00 at night to book an appointment using their telephone keypad."
>>

« Last Edit: Apr 28^th, 2008 at 10:37pm by idb »

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NGMsGhost

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #544 - Apr 29^th, 2008 at 12:35am

With morons like this guy calling themselves practice managers it is surely obvious the only solution is an outright ban on the use of anything but 01, 02 and 03 numbers to call your doctor.

The government has the same charges for a prescription issued by a doctor across England so how can the cost of accessing your doctor to make an appointment not also be at one consistent price? Undecided

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idb

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #545 - Apr 29^th, 2008 at 1:33am

http://www.derbycitypct.nhs.uk/content/Trust%20Board%20papers/April%202008/TB%20...

037.08

Matters arising from the minutes

020/08 05.08.01 0844 Telephone Numbers

Mrs Stuckey reported that the PCT written to all practices indicating that no new contracts for 084 numbers should be entered into. With respect to existing contracts between practices and 084 suppliers the Access Taskforce had commissioned a telephone consultancy firm to scope possible options. Updates would be brought to the Board as appropriate.

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idb

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #546 - Apr 29^th, 2008 at 2:51am

http://www.helptheaged.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/D8CE643D-591B-4AE1-823E-5502AC20DE47/...

Quote:

ISSUE 34 Mar/Apr 08

Letters

To the Editor

The long-running scandal of GP surgeries all over the country making money from patients, charging to contact them on 0844 numbers, has at long last forced the Department of Health to issue a stop warning. Here is an issue, already affecting one in three surgeries in some parts of the country, where we can help end the practice where patients are paying more than the cost of a local call, plus both VAT and the call set-up fee when calling an 0844 revenue sharing number. Revenue sharing means the patient pays at least 4.2p per minute which becomes 5p (with VAT included). Then there is a call set-up fee (normally 6p) added to the cost of every call. A three minute call therefore costs 21p, well in excess of the cost of calling a local number. And this money is shared between the surgery and the network provider. Using a mobile to phone a surgery 0844 line means even more revenue sharing, as calls can cost 50p minute, and we have cases of up to £4.60 being paid to make a single appointment. We have scored a notable victory in our campaign against local surgeries using these 0844 phone lines. The Enfield Primary Care Trust (PCT) has told us they’ve written to all 62 surgeries in the Borough warning them that the PCT does not support entering into new contracts for 0844 numbers. In the same letter, signed by Rob Lee, Associate Director of Primary Care, the 13 Enfield surgeries already using an 0844 number were told to reconsider the continued use of such a system. We now expect the PCT will order the offending surgeries to write to every patient telling them exactly what they are paying to call them. The Forum has long argued that this rip-off practice is wrong. Surgeries should not be allowed to boost their income by taking a cut from the cost of each incoming 0844 call, particularly from vulnerable elderly and disabled people on low incomes. This is the 60th anniversary year of the NHS and Forums should insist that GPs uphold the founding principle of the health service that it should be free at the point of need. I have argued many times that if Forums acted in a concerted way we would have greater influence, so emulate us!

Monty Meth MBE, Chair, Enfield Borough Over 50s Forum

« Last Edit: Apr 30^th, 2008 at 7:29pm by DaveM »

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Keith

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #547 - Apr 29^th, 2008 at 7:22am

The PCTs seem to be saying that no future 0844 contracts should be taken out and they have been saying this for sometime.

Firstly Doctors seem to be ignoring this as plenty of new ones seem to have been announced or are these ones that were in progress?

Secondly this seems very unfair. What it is saying is is you have already exploited your patients then you can carry on doing so. However if you had moral scruples about doing this and so didn't you are now banned from doing so. So those who did so can profit out of it and those that didn't don't and can't.

Those that went over to 0844 should be told to stop and renegoatiate their contracts. If they suffer financial penalties for doing so then so be it. They shouldn't have entered into these contracts in the first place. If they were mislead about this then they can always take legal action.

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NGMsGhost

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #548 - Apr 29^th, 2008 at 12:32pm

idb wrote on Apr 29^th, 2008 at 2:51am:

http://www.helptheaged.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/D8CE643D-591B-4AE1-823E-5502AC20DE47/...

ISSUE 34 Mar/Apr 08

Letters

To the Editor

The long-running scandal of GP surgeries all over the country making money from patients, charging to contact them on 0844 numbers, has at long last forced the Department of Health to issue a stop warning. Here is an issue, already affecting one in three surgeries in some parts of the country, where we can help end the practice where patients are paying more than the cost of a local call, plus both VAT and the call set-up fee when calling an 0844 revenue sharing number. Revenue sharing means the patient pays at least 4.2p per minute which becomes 5p (with VAT included). Then there is a call set-up fee (normally 6p) added to the cost of every call. A three minute call therefore costs 21p, well in excess of the cost of calling a local number. And this money is shared between the surgery and the network provider. Using a mobile to phone a surgery 0844 line means even more revenue sharing, as calls can cost 50p minute, and we have cases of up to £4.60 being paid to make a single appointment. We have scored a notable victory in our campaign against local surgeries using these 0844 phone lines. The Enfield Primary Care Trust (PCT) has told us they’ve written to all 62 surgeries in the Borough warning them that the PCT does not support entering into new contracts for 0844 numbers. In the same letter, signed by Rob Lee, Associate Director of Primary Care, the 13 Enfield surgeries already using an 0844 number were told to reconsider the continued use of such a system. We now expect the PCT will order the offending surgeries to write to every patient telling them exactly what they are paying to call them. The Forum has long argued that this rip-off practice is wrong. Surgeries should not be allowed to boost their income by taking a cut from the cost of each incoming 0844 call, particularly from vulnerable elderly and disabled people on low incomes. This is the 60th anniversary year of the NHS and Forums should insist that GPs uphold the founding principle of the health service that it should be free at the point of need. I have argued many times that if Forums acted in a concerted way we would have greater influence, so emulate us!

Monty Meth MBE, Chair, Enfield Borough Over 50s Forum

I am pleased to see that Help The Aged also only use geographic numbers for contacting them.

Or at least that is now the case as I have a sneaking suspicion they at one stage used 0845 numbers.

See www.helptheaged.org.uk/en-gb/WhatWeDo/AboutUs/ContactUs/

« Last Edit: Apr 30^th, 2008 at 7:28pm by DaveM »

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NGMsGhost

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #549 - Apr 29^th, 2008 at 12:36pm

Keith wrote on Apr 29^th, 2008 at 7:22am:

Secondly this seems very unfair. What it is saying is is you have already exploited your patients then you can carry on doing so. However if you had moral scruples about doing this and so didn't you are now banned from doing so. So those who did so can profit out of it and those that didn't don't and can't.

Those that went over to 0844 should be told to stop and renegoatiate their contracts. If they suffer financial penalties for doing so then so be it. They shouldn't have entered into these contracts in the first place. If they were mislead about this then they can always take legal action.

I absolutely agree Keith.

GPs were previously told that they must not go on using 0870 and this was universally complied with when NEG and others switched to using 0844 as a loophole and the DH stupidly believed this was "local rate"

Now the DH is aware 0844 is not "local rate" then why can't they issue an edict requiring doctors on 0844 to all move to 01, 02 and 03 themselves and pick up the cost out of their own already bloated and overpaid pockets. If these doctors have to take a £5,000 a year pay cut for 5 years to pay for their own previous greed, stupidity, incompetence and dereliction of duty towards their patients then so much the better.

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Jon_Dean

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #550 - Apr 30^th, 2008 at 7:31am

Good morning, this is my first post on this forum. I have been following it for a number of months now because - I should mention up front - I have a commercial interest in this area. I'm in telecoms; my company supplies telephone systems to businesses.

I started reading this blog after a small series of events. Firstly my wife and I found our own doctor's surgery difficult to get hold of at peak times. In researching solutions to this problem I discovered that there were several companies using non geographic numbers to provide additional call queuing for surgeries. It must be said that there is some technical benefit to this although the downsides of eternal queuing, increased cost, and lack of trust would obviously seem to outweight it in the eyes of those who count most - the patients (who are also the electorate - a point strangely missed by an ailing government that doesn't benefit financially from these arrangements itself but could easily get some brownie points by doing something about it).

You might be interested in the report that we sent to Alan Johnson as this debate rumbles on:

http://www.ukbusinesstelephonesystems.co.uk/surgery0844.htm

As is plainly obvious though, it is no good waiting for government intervention. So I decided that we should do something about it ourselves. We have come up with a proposition whereby we will supply a specialist telephone system and service to GPs for the same monthly costs as they are currently paying for just their lines, calls & maintenenace. Guaranteed. Thus an effectively free telephone system to improve patient access [i]and [/i]they get to keep their existing local telephone number.

You can see a press release here:

http://www.pressbox.co.uk/detailed/Health/We_Couldn_t_Stand_GPs_Phone_Systems_So_We_Started_Giving_New_Ones_Away__190226.html

Like on a mobile phone deal, surgeries need to tie in for a period and there are additional options available at an extra monthly cost. There is no upfront investment required though on anything we do.

The reality is this: doctors have to live life commercially these days. That is why we have this problem in the first place and until it is answered commercially it will not disappear. I hope that this solution now provides them with an answer to their telephony needs without having to resort to charging their patients.

PS: For those that have read this and see it as a plug for our business I apologise. However, for those who see that somebody is prepared to take this issue on commercially, I hope you will help us to ensure surgeries [i]never[/i] have an excuse for using non geographic numbers again.

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idb Supreme Member Offline Posts: 1,499 Miami, Florida, United States Gender:	Re: NEG propaganda Reply #551 - May 1^st, 2008 at 12:52am http://www.colefordhealthcentre.nhs.uk/coleford10.html Phone:0844 477 8692 Coleford Health Centre Please note that the surgery telephone number is not contactable from abroad/overseas. It us advised that should you require medical advice whilst abroad to fax your query directly to the surgery on 01594 810683. Jokers
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idb

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #552 - May 1^st, 2008 at 10:13pm

House of Commons Hansard Written Answers for 30 Apr 2008 (pt 0007)

NHS: Telephone Services

Julia Goldsworthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance his Department provides to (a) primary care trusts and (b) service providers on their use of numbers with the prefix (i) 0845 and (ii) 087. [201794]

Mr. Bradshaw: General medical services (CMS) contractors were banned from using premium rate numbers (09 or 087) via The National Health Service (Primary Medical Services) (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations SI 2005 No. 893. The ban came into force in April 2005 but did not include 084 numbers.

On 19 December 2006 the Department wrote to primary care trust chief executives advising them that the Department was reviewing the use of non-geographical telephone numbers in light of the consultation carried out by Ofcom; and re-iterating the Government's position that

“patients should not be expected to pay more than the equivalent of a local call”.

The Department is currently gathering evidence on the use of 0844 numbers in general practice and will consider what further action is necessary in light of that evidence.

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idb

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #553 - May 1^st, 2008 at 11:37pm

idb wrote on Feb 8^th, 2008 at 11:35pm:

ABOUT TIME TOO.

Hopefully sets a precedent.

http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/Hospital-rings-the-changes.3760443.jp

And the associated press release:

http://www.nth.nhs.uk/assets/x/50075

February 6 2008

Trust listens to feedback and reinstates local phone numbers

University Hospital of North Tees 01642 617617
University Hospital of Hartlepool 01429 266654
Reinstated from 31 January 2008

North Tees and Hartlepool Foundation NHS Trust has reinstated its original telephone numbers following feedback from a number of people.

The trust brought in an 0844 number a year ago because it wanted one single number for the trust’s two main hospitals.

The 0844 number caused some problems for people ringing from abroad to find out how friends and families were because it was up to the service provider in the country in question whether they would allow the number to be rung from outside the UK.

There was also some evidence that different mobile phone networks charged heavily for the use of the 0844 number from a mobile phone.

Chief executive Alan Foster said: “After having listened to a number of people’s concerns I felt it was the right thing to do to bring the original phone numbers back in to use.

“I fully appreciate that getting in touch with the hospital, either for yourself or to enquire about a friend or relative, often happens at what is a very stressful time. We certainly don’t want to add to that stress by raising people’s anxieties over the cost of phone calls, which is why I’ve arranged for the phone numbers people have been familiar with to come back into use.”

Ends

For more information please contact Claire Young on 01642 624339

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NGMsGhost Supreme Member Offline The Forum Ghost of NonGeographicalMan<b r /> Posts: 2,720 Surrey, United Kingdom Gender:	Re: NEG propaganda Reply #554 - May 2^nd, 2008 at 1:50am Good news indeed. But unfortunatelyt still a case of one down and 9,999 to go so far as the public sector is concerned I fear.
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