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NEG propaganda (Read 752,607 times)

Keith

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #585 - Jun 16^th, 2008 at 4:16pm

Well I have to say 'to all intents and purposes' Heinz was right because quite frankly I would have prefered silence to this reply I got 16 days after I sent my email.

No attempt has been made to answer my email. It is a stock reply. No mention of the review taking place. Says they are not collecting data on the use of 084x. Well how the hell are they going to make a decision then or as I suspect this is just the old response that used to be sent out months ago without any attenpt to update it.

What is the point of reiterating the old stuff of not expecting patients to pay more than a local call when this is not happening and also to expect local PCTs to sort it out when they clearly are not doing so and they know it.

I would have appreciated at least 1 minute being spent on the reply to me.

And interestingly an email is obviously deemed to have been sent when it is read!

Dear xxxxx,

Thank you for your email of 2 June to Alan Johnson about the use of 084 telephone numbers by GP practices. As you will appreciate, Mr Johnson receives a large amount of correspondence daily and it is not always possible for him to answer all of his letters personally. I have therefore been asked to reply on his behalf.

The Department appreciates your concern about the issue of GP practice telephone numbers, and does not want to see people charged excessively for contacting their GP.

In 2006, former Health Minister Lord Warner issued a letter to all Primary Care Trust (PCT) Chief Executives, which asked them to:

...consider what actions (they) need to take locally to ensure that patients telephoning practices do not pay more than they would if they called a local geographical telephone number.

The Department does not collect information on the telephone numbers in use by local GP practices. It is aware that some practices across the country are using 084 numbers, but the Department does not expect patients to have to pay more than the cost of a local call.

Ministers believe that decisions about local services are best taken locally, where the local situation and local priorities are best understood. NHS organisations have a duty to ensure that they provide the best possible service to their local populations. It is for PCTs to consider what is in their patients’ best interests. However, the Department expects PCTs and GPs locally to ensure telephone systems do not place a financial burden on patients.

Yours sincerely,

Kate Roy
Customer Service Centre
Department of Health

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Keith

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #586 - Jun 17^th, 2008 at 7:19am

Originally I sent a rather grumpy response to the email rec'd (I hate it when you put thought and effort into something and no effort is put into responding). This morning I sent the following more thoughtful reply.

And whoops I have just noticed I have 2 point a) Shocked

---------------------------------------------

As you will know form my original reply to your email I was rather annoyed
by getting a standard (and out of date) reply to my email. This rather
discourages the public from getting involved in public matters. It was very
disheartening.

Having thought about this I would like to ask some specific questions:

a) Do you know when the DofH review on GPs use of 0844 numbers will
be completed? I believe it was originally due for this March.

a) You say the department does not collect information on the telephone
numbers in use by local GP practices . How on earth are you carrying out
the review if you haven't done this?

b) You state "In 2006, former Health Minister Lord Warner issued a letter
to all Primary Care Trust (PCT) Chief Executives, which asked them
to:...consider what actions (they) need to take locally to ensure that
patients telephoning practices do not pay more than they would if they
called a local geographical telephone number."

PCTs are currently not doing this. The not unreasonable reason given is
that they are waiting for the DofH review to report. What is your comment
on this please?

c) You state that "... the Department expects PCTs and GPs locally to
ensure telephone systems do not place a financial burden on patients."

This is not happening with 0844 numbers. In particular for the most
vulnerable who use payphones or PAYG mobiles who now pay very high
costs indeed to call GPs. Neither the GPs nor the PCTs are acting to
stop this.

Surely this means that the DofH must act. What is your comment to this
please?

If you could give a specific reply to points a), b) and c) I would appreciate
it.

Thank you. Keith

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #587 - Jun 17^th, 2008 at 10:21am

Keith wrote on Jun 17^th, 2008 at 7:19am:

This morning I sent the following more thoughtful reply.

Yes, I too have a library full of correspondence including exactly those same comments from the DH. Your reply is well to the point.

The DH response has not yet been updated because there has not actually been any significant change of policy position. A big mistake was made in 2005 by believing that 0844 numbers were charged at a "guaranteed low rate" - see news release. This led to their use actually being encouraged. The error has now been recognised by the DH, but not yet acknowledged as such. I have attempted to get the author of this phrase in advice to the government to own up, but without success. With a different team of ministers in place it is however more important to look forward.

The evidence gathering will lead to something being said or done. This could be as early as this afternoon when there is an opposition-led debate on Primary Care in parliament - Health Ministers will be answering questions from 2:30, the debate will follow at around 3:40 - see agenda.

Whilst ministers are considering what to do one cannot expect departmental officials to give a running commentary on their thought processes. The fact that the exercise was extended from its original planned conclusion may be a positive indication that the issue is being looking into seriously. A degree of cynicism is always justified and we must never expect to get everything that we want, however I am mildly optimistic.

@fairtelecoms (tweets)

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Barbara

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #588 - Jun 17^th, 2008 at 6:05pm

I don't know if anyone else saw the item on BBC Look East a few minutes ago (about 6.45pm) regarding the use of 0844 by doctors' surgeries. I am going to email them immediately after I finish this post as there were a number of errors in the report (eg it only costs more to call 0844 from a mobile not from a landline - do these people not do research?, no mention of costs from payphones or the revenue share accruing to doctors). The report concluded with a statement to the effect that we will all just have to get used to calling GPs on 0844!

I do think it very important, particularly in view of the amount of hard work put in by very knowledgeable members of this forum, that one of thes experts with far greater knowledge of the subject than I have contacts BBC Look East to ensure they have the full facts and that our side of the case is put, preferably in a follow up news item (I did get the impression this is has been raised on a previous occasion recently but I have been on holiday and may have missed it). I will refer them to this thread on this forum site but do think this is a good opportunity to get some media coverage for the problems.

The contact details are tel 01603 619331 (NOT the 0845 they give on the programme!) and email: look.east@bbc.co.uk

Thank you.

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NGMsGhost

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #589 - Jun 17^th, 2008 at 6:43pm

Barbara,

In view of your own longstanding involvement on this website and your clear cut passion for the cause I do not personally consider you to be any less of an expert on this matter than the rest of us.

At the end of the day the BBC likes to cover stories from real local people affected by the issue who live in the area affected by their news item. You are that person and so are far more relevant for the BBC to take comments from than those of us who live the other side of London or in London.

Also I have a very urgent deadline coming up on Thursday and so I don't think I could take the time to write a long response to BBC East. You may find the contents of some of the below recent email sent today to the Parliamentary & Health Service Ombudsman to be of assistance in presenting the arguments to BBC Look East.

I would advise not getting in to the pence per minute argument as pricing varies by telecoms provider. Instead stick to the argument that the calls are not part of calls packages on landlines or bundled minutes on mobiles. As long as you do that then most of the above arguments about the Ombudsman's 0845 number also still apply.

Quote:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Inappropriate Use of 0845 Number by Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:48:21 +0100
To: complaintsaboutphso@ombudsman.org.uk, trish.longdon@ombudsman.org.uk
CC: ann.abraham@ombudsman.org.uk, bill.richardson@ombudsman.org.uk, philip.aylett@ombudsman.org.uk

Dear Ms Longdon,

Inappropriate Continued Use of 0845 Contact Telephone Number by Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman Contrary to the Recommendations of Ofcom, Sir David Varney and The Central Office of Information's Better Practice Guide for Government Contact Centres

I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman's continued use of an 0845 telephone number (0845 015 4033) for contacting it despite the advice and recommendations of the Central Office of Information's Better Practice Guide for Government Contact Centres (Third Edition) and Sir David Varney's report - Service Transformation - a better deal for citizens and businesses, a better deal for the taxpayer. The Ombudsman is also ignoring repeated advice from Ofcom that it would be most appropriate for public sector contact centres to switch to using its new 03 phone number range, although in the case of the Parliamentary & Health Service Ombudsman there appears no good reason why your office could not simply display its underlying 020 geographic phone numbers since you do not appear to operate across multiple regional call centres (a primary reason historically in the government sector for using an 0845 non geographic number).

The reason 0845 is objectionable is because these numbers are excluded from inclusive bundled call plans such as BT's Unlimited Anytime Plan or TalkTalk's Talk 3 plan and are also not included in bundled mobile phone packages taken up by many mobile phone users who can make unlimited calls to numbers starting 01, 02 or 03 out of their bundled minutes allowance. However numbers commencing 080, 084 and 087 are not included in these packages and are always charged per minute in addition to their monthly mobile phone subscription. The most expensive mobile phone tariffs charge up to 40p per minute to call 0845 when in the UK. Also under Vodafone's Passport tariff deal one can call a normal UK number starting 01 or 02 out of bundled minutes plus a 75p service fee when roaming in many EU countries but a call to the Parliamentary & Health Service Ombudsman's 0845 number will cost 75p per minute + connection or a staggering £45.75 per hour to call while roaming in those same countries with the same phone. It is obviously possible to envisage some circumstances in which UK citizens might need to contact the Parliamentary & Health Service Ombudsman whilst overseas.

The recommendations in Sir David Varney's report can be found in Chapter 7 of his report at www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/4/F/pbr06_varney_review.pdf ; The chapter starts on P.53 of the report (P58 of the pdf file) and the most relevant recommendations about government contact centres are in paragraphs 7.24 and 7.30 of his report.

You can obtain a copy of the Central Office of Information's Better Practice Guide for Government Contact Centres (Third Edition) at www.coi.gov.uk/documents/gcc-third-edition.pdf ; If you refer to paragraph 3.51 on p35 of the guide (p36 of the PDF file) onwards you will see that there is a large amount of material there that is relevant with respect to the use of the 0845 number by the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman and why your use of 0845 is likely to impose arbitrary and excessive costs on many callers, including the poorest members of society who often do not have access to a landline phone and instead use Pay As You Go mobile phones. As discussed these Pay As You Go mobile phones can charge up to 40p per minute to call 0845 on some tariffs. Yet a normal number starting 01, 02 or 03 can be called on the same Pay As You Go phones for as little as 15p for a call of up to 60 minutes at some times of day. This is not possible for 0845 numbers.

The other following references showing concerns about inappropriate use and misuse of 084 and 087 prefixed phone numbers may also be of assistance to you in your investigation:-

Continued/............

« Last Edit: Jun 17^th, 2008 at 6:55pm by NGMsGhost »

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NGMsGhost

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #590 - Jun 17^th, 2008 at 6:46pm

Continued From Above/.....................

Quote:

The other following references showing concerns about inappropriate use and misuse of 084 and 087 prefixed phone numbers may also be of assistance to you in your investigation:-

The view of a county council trading standards department about price misdescriptions of these numbers:-

See para 1.3 on page 1 of www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/oftel_0845/responses/leicester_cc.pdf

and

the view of the then CEO of BT Retail (now the new CEO designate of the whole of BT), Ian Livingston, regarding inappropriate use of 084 and 087 numbers:-

http://business.scotsman.com/business/BT-calls-on-Ofcom-to.2642029.jp

and

two guidances from the Advertising Standards Authority

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Hanging+on+the+telephone+on+and+on+and+...

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm

and

the Current Parliamentary Early Day Motion signed by 86 MPs expressing concern about the substantial additional cost of calling benefit helplines using 0845 numbers, especially from mobile phones.

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=35520&SESSION=891

an earlier Parliamentary Early Day motion deploring the use of 0870 telephone numbers by government departments

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872%09%09%09%09%09%09%09&...

and

Two other guidances from the Committee of Advertising Practice of the Advertising Standards Authority

www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/CAP+rings+the+changes+for+telecoms+prov...

www.asa.org.uk/cap/advice_online/ad_alerts/Advertising+0845+and+087+numbers.htm

and finally Pages 5 and 6 of the below minutes from my own district council - Mole Valley District Council (on which I was formerly a local district councillor) where in 2005 we agreed to adopt policy to stop any further or future use of 0845 and 0870 numbers. See Minute 141 (Motion 2/2005 on P.5 of the PDF) at :-

www.molevalley.gov.uk/media/pdf/1/s/Council_Minutes_190705.pdf

I hope you will investigate this matter thoroughly as I am very disappointed indeed to see the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, of all bodies, still using one of these covert premium rate non geographic numbers as its main point of telephone contact.

I look forward to hearing from you regarding this matter.

Yours faithfully,

« Last Edit: Jun 17^th, 2008 at 6:48pm by NGMsGhost »

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Dave

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #591 - Jun 17^th, 2008 at 8:02pm

Barbara wrote on Jun 17^th, 2008 at 6:05pm:

I've just watched the report. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to have its own link, so you will have to go to the main BBC Look East page and skip to 16 minutes in. The report was by Joel Mapp.

It made no mention of charging patients and the NHS not being "free at the point of need". The queuing is what is riling patients.

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #592 - Jun 17^th, 2008 at 11:28pm

Barbara wrote on Jun 17^th, 2008 at 6:05pm:

I don't know if anyone else saw the item on BBC Look East a few minutes ago (about 6.45pm)

Thanks to those who have posted on this. I have now seen it.

There are two essential flaws in a very brief report.

1 - The assumption that Surgery Line needs a 0844 number. (A 03 number would work equally well)

2 - The statement "from a landline it's the same". (Call type "g6" calls are invariably more expensive)

There are other issues in this story to be followed up.

@fairtelecoms (tweets)

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #593 - Jun 18^th, 2008 at 9:37am

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jun 17^th, 2008 at 11:28pm:

There are other issues in this story to be followed up.

The new telephone number for "Biggleswade Health Centre", two practices run by Dr Kirkham & Partners, is 0844 576 9041. This is not shown on NHS Choices, nor even on the practice website.

The claim of 180 practices using 0844 numbers "in our area" by BBC Look East can be set against the fact that only 92 practices serving PCTs covered by the East Anglia SHA publish such numbers on NHS Choices. Noting the Biggleswade example, could this suggest that the problem is actually much more widespread than we and the Department of Health recognise?

There was an item on this story in a local newspaper in February. It does not mention the telephone number and so may have evaded attempts at media monitoring.

@fairtelecoms (tweets)

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idb

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #594 - Jun 19^th, 2008 at 10:58pm

http://www.thecomet.net/content/comet/news/story.aspx?brand=CMTOnline&category=n...

Phone outrage - pensioners complain about hidden cost of health care

10:17 - 19 June 2008

<<
A HEALTH centre has denied accusations that its new phone system is causing pensioners to wait as long as 45 minutes before calls are answered.

One pensioner revealed he was told he was 60th in a queue and hung up because he was aware of the costs he might face.

This week the Biggleswade and District Pensioners' Association issued a damning statement accusing the Biggleswade Health Centre in Saffron Road of placing an unnecessary financial burden on the elderly with the new system.

"The new number is considerably more expensive to call from landlines and can cost up to 40p a minute using a mobile phone," said the association.

"Many patients will have contracts with telecom suppliers allowing them to call 01767 numbers either free or as part of a call allowance. This does not apply to the 0844 number at the surgery.

"Since the new telephone system has been installed we have received reports from patients saying they have experienced waiting times of up to 45 minutes in getting through.

"The association considers this practice especially penalises the poor, elderly and other persons who do not have access to a home phone and must rely on a public phone box or mobile phone.

"It is an additional and unnecessary burden and cost on illness and is counter to the principle that healthcare should be free at the point of delivery."

Association committee member David Hopton was the unfortunate pensioner who was informed he was 60th in a queue waiting to talk to the surgery.

Mr Hopton, 77, who lives in Upper Caldecote, said this week: "I rang the surgery shortly after 8am only to be told I was 60th in the queue so I hung up. This upset me because I was aware of the extra costs that can be 6p a minute.

"Many pensioners just don't realise how much it is now costing to call the surgery. Pensioners are being squeezed on all fronts and it is not fair when it comes to health."

Health centre manager Jenny Morley said the centre denied the allegations that were being made by the association.

"I would dispute patients are waiting as long as 45 minutes. The perception of how long people are waiting on the phone is wrong," said Mrs Morley.

"The decision to change our phone system was not one that was taken lightly but it was taken to improve services at the centre.

"The cost of the new system is 1p a minute more than it was but patients are getting a better service. We have had a lot of compliments about the new system.

"We have had many discussions with the pensioners' group and have tried to be up front with them about the changes.
>>

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.

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idb

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #595 - Jun 19^th, 2008 at 11:00pm

http://www.biggleswadetoday.co.uk/bigg/Protest-over-health-centre-phone.4197885....

Protest over health centre phone changes

<<
A pensioners group calls for a public meeting

A pensioners' group has vowed to start a campaign to combat changes to a health centre's phone number.

Biggleswade and District Pensioners' Association has spoken out agains the change to the Saffron Road health centre in Biggleswade, which now uses an 0844 number - as reported in the Biggleswade Chronicle in February.

It says the new system, which adds callers to a queue, is adding unnecessary burden and cost on illness.

Chairman Ken Lynch said: "I want to talk to Biggleswade Town Council to see if we can arrange a public meeting because lots of people are having problems. We want to make sure that justice is done for the senior citizens and everybody.

"Healthcare should be free to the point of delivery, which it isn't now."

For the full story see the June 20 edition of the Biggleswade Chronicle.
>>

« Last Edit: Jun 19^th, 2008 at 11:00pm by idb »

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.

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Barbara

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #596 - Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 8:26am

I know that a number of other forum members contacted BBC Look East after the news item last Tuesday and I was wondering if anyone has had any response from them, I know I haven't other than the auto acknowledgement. It does seem wrong that a programme from an organisation such as the BBC which is supposed to have a reputation for accurate reporting of facts can make errors and misrepresentations and then do nothing when these are brought to their attention. I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this, bearing in mind that, if people believed that news report, they will be dialling 0844 from a landline thinking it costs the same as landline call to a geo no, and that was only one of the errors!

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Dave

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #597 - Jun 27^th, 2008 at 9:26pm

Source: Bedford Today

http://www.bedfordtoday.co.uk/bed-news/Doctors39-surgeries-39ripping-off39-patie...

Doctors' surgeries 'ripping off' patients with premium rate call lines

Published Date: 26 June 2008
By Paul Fisher

<<

Six practices in firing line but claim their 'hands are tied' over contracts

Doctors' surgeries using premium rate telephone numbers, have been accused of "ripping off" patients.

Six surgeries in Bedford, Kempston, Flitwick and Ampthill use 084 telephone numbers, which healthcare bosses and councillors have expressed concerns about.

Calls made to these premium rate lines incur a connection charge of six pence and then cost five pence per minute, regardless of any inclusive or low-cost call packages offered by telephone operators.

Dr Basra's surgeries in Bushmead Avenue, Ampthill Road and Victoria Road, Bedford, Dr Ling and Partners, of The Highlands, Flitwick, Cater Street Surgery, Cater Street, Kempston, and Houghton Close Surgery, in Houghton Close, Ampthill, all use 084 telephone numbers.

Coun Nicky Attenborough (Con, Kempston East) said: "It's absolutely ridiculous. Why would a doctor's surgery have a premium rate line?
"We all know 084 numbers are expensive, I look at a 084 number and immediately don't want to ring it.

"It's just not on, I feel people should not be afraid to phone their surgeries. People are being ripped off."

Ofcom, the independent regulator and competition authority for the UK communications industries, investigated the use of 084 numbers in 2005.

It subsequently introduced 03 telephone numbers in 2007, which are charged at geographical rates, such as 01 and 02 numbers, and are included in inclusive or low-cost call packages.

Baron Norman Warner, a former health minister, wrote to all Primary Care Trusts (PCT) in December advising them against using 084 numbers and recommending surgeries use a geographic number or a 03 number to ensure patients do not pay more than necessary.

But Bedfordshire PCT, which oversees the running of doctors' surgeries, said it is powerless to interfere.

A spokesman said: "As a PCT we hold contracts with GPs.

"These contracts list a range of numbers, like premium rate 09 numbers, which surgeries are not allowed to use, but they do not cover 084.

"Because of this there is nothing we can do. When this issue came to our attention we wrote to all surgeries advising them the Department of Health were looking into the matter and not to install 084 numbers.

"I have heard some of these 084 deals are long term tie-ins though, which could cause problems for surgeries."

He added: "We are obviously concerned and made our point of view plain to GP practices, but they are independently contracted."

Dr Satwinder Singh Basra, said there was nothing he could do about his surgeries' telephone lines.

He added: "We cannot get out of the contract with the telephone company. It is a five-year contract, which we have had since 2005, our hands are tied.

"It provides a good service to the patient, you ring one number to talk to three surgeries and it's not that expensive.

"All over the country these numbers are used, I do not know why there is so much fuss, it's not for our profit."

The Department of Health is currently gathering evidence and views on the use of premium rate lines in doctors surgeries and will consider whether further action is necessary once that process is complete.

>>

Not for profit for the doctors (apart from allowing them to offset the cost of the system). But the telcos are making more profit from the use of 0844 numbers as they are a very inefficient method of transferring payment from caller to receiver.

« Last Edit: Jun 27^th, 2008 at 9:47pm by Dave »

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Keith

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #598 - Jul 2^nd, 2008 at 11:35am

Is it worth getting a campaign up to get patients to swap their GP from those who use 0844 to those that don't?

I appreciate that for most people this isn't practical, but having done a very back of the envelope calculation I suspect that a GPs surgery only needs to lose a handful of patients to lose out financially and may be change their ways for the benefit of everyone.

GPs claim they are busineses. Let's see how they like proper competition.

For me it would be inconvenient, but if I thought others were going to do it I would go for it and it would prevent those GPs who benefit from the swap from moving to 0844.

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: NEG propaganda
Reply #599 - Jul 2^nd, 2008 at 1:36pm

Keith wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2008 at 11:35am:

Is it worth getting a campaign up to get patients to swap their GP from those who use 0844 to those that don't?

I can see the point, however I have a big problem with this approach. Whilst not wishing to deny any patient their right to change to another GP, I would oppose any campaign to persuade them to do so on the basis of improper charges.

In return, patients who were happy to pay a little extra in order to benefit from a more sophisticated telephone system could be encouraged to move in the opposite direction. This is what some mean by "patient choice". Furthermore, if this point was pressed, every patient who did not move away from a surgery that imposed improper charges would be counted as consenting to them.

I am campaigning to save the NHS as being "free at the point of need" for all, regardless of how much patients are willing and able to pay for treatment. If patients start selecting on the basis of cost then this battle will have been lost.

Please do not feel that the valid points made are being dismissed out of hand. There are however broader considerations. A decision to change surgeries is one that any patient may make on whatever grounds they believe to be significant. I do not believe that this is something that should be either encouraged or discouraged.

@fairtelecoms (tweets)

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