I have just discovered that Daily Mail story only appeared in the paper today although it was on their website yesterday!   It has now accumulated about 10 comments from readers (although they seem to have ignored my 2 comments)  as follows :----

With LIFT (Local Investment Finance Trust) gaining a bigger private foothold by the day in GPs' surgeries and Health Centres, and doctors threatened with bankruptcy and redundancy if they fail to balance their books, it's no wonder they'll do all they can to "make a swift buck". What we need is the people who thought this all up plus the ones who are happily carrying it out behind our backs to be packed off to the USA, where presumably they'd be happy surviving on private medical insurance.

- Bob Edwards, UK

How long is it going to be before the "ripped off" people of Britain can no longer afford the expensive wheezes devised by the evil people at the helm of this poor country.

- G. Dawson, Halifax UK

Surely if the practice is giving a better service to patients this somewhat small increase is acceptable? My sister's GP uses a 0844 number and she seems to be able to get through all the time, whereas mine just rings and rings, for so long after a while the line goes dead. I have twice had to drive to the practice just to make an appt, and as for cancelling my appointments - I don't even bother to try anymore!

- Suzie Stone, Hereford, England

This is a very interesting article that manipulates the true cost of phone calls and ignores the reason GPs have switched to 0844 numbers in the first place – to eliminate engaged phone lines and provide better service to patients.

Results from a survey taken of patients NOT using 0844 numbers in order to establish their viewpoint tell a different story with 66% saying that had they have experienced problems in trying to make an appointment to see their GP.

Given the alternative between calling their GP and being put in a queue or hearing the engaged tone and having to re-dial, 71% said they would prefer to be put in a queue.

Patients were asked what was a reasonable price to pay to call their GP to book an appointment, find out test results etc. 82% agreed that the average tcall cost to an 0844 number of 9p was a reasonable charge and would have no issues paying this amount.


This is a great British idea that solves a real problem faced by patients every day.

- Alastair Campbell, Market Harborough

Email them instead. I refuse these excessive phone prices wherever I can... the clue is in the title: Network Europe Group... anything to do with Europe is bound to be expensive and useless.

- Samantha Jones, Bucks

What on earth do you expect with most of this country's subjects worshipping the god of money? Time to get back to what's important in life, and to stop trying to screw each other over for a few quid.

- Mark R, Coventry UK

Greed entered the medical profession more than a decade ago and because of the general stupidity of this government in not negotiating sound contracts with doctors in the last decade the British public are now paying more for less and will continue to do so. It used to be 'how fat is my cat', referring to fat cat businessmen but now it seems to be, 'how fat is my medic'.

- Ken, Suffolk, England

Switching patients' calls into a queue at twice the normal calling charge is hardly what I'd call progress. At the moment, if I get an "engaged" tone, I just re-dial at no charge at all until I'm connected.

- Will Hames, London, UK

The GP's have to fork out for ringing people on their mobiles instead of landlines nowadays which has massively increased costs to them.
People should keep a sense of perspective. NHS GP care is the best in the world at the moment.


- Gus Barker, UK

Has anyone noticed that the Dept. of Environment uses an 0845 (local call rate) Number for its flood risk emergency line instead of an 0800 (freephone) number?

They're all 'at it'!

- A.W., Wales

loddon wrote on Jul 24^th, 2007 at 6:51pm:


Could this possibly be THE Alastair Campbell?   He's obviously keen on quoting surveys.

The question arises -- what survey?  Who prepared it?  Was it entirely independent?

What about surveying patients where their doctor HAS moved to 0844?   What do they say then?

Anyway, doesn't this somewhat miss the point?   The benefits of different call management, queueing, storage and forwarding etc arise from the installed system, not from the number.   Systems can do all this stuff with any number, geographic or non-geographic.   0844 is there to generate revenue for funding ......... and profit.

loddon wrote on Jul 24^th, 2007 at 7:40pm:
This particular flavor of Campbell was connected with NEG at some point (search the archives here) and not the former Director of Communications for Blair. The so-called survey was probably an NEG initiative.

And look at some of the comments already posted on the "Lincolnshire Echo" :----


I don't see how it benefits patients at all! Especially when the automated lady tells me to press one for this or 2 for that.....and when I finally get through the receptionist STILL asks how she can help! Plus with the number for my sugery now being so long I can't remember it off by heart. It now takes ages to get through to South Park surgery, and it's so annoying! Pathetic, expensive and a waste of time!
hayley, lincoln




I note the comment re the comments "Advantages to GP practices using these numbers, as they meant a patient would never be faced by an engaged tone when they called" What is wrong with the patient using the call back feature on the phone, Mobile have retry, land lines have press "5" or have the GP's specificaly asked this service not be available on their lines, so they can gain some income, also BT Virgin Media offer a service as do many mobile opperators, a FREE NATIONAL & LOCAL CALLS to ANY LAND LINE IN THE UK. Some what knocks off the Comments "advantages to GP practices ect" I must remember to ask my GP to pull the other it has a ring tone on it now!! 
wayne, Lincoln




I'm sorry! but how does charging us more to phone the doctors surgery benefit the patients? is this not just another excuse to squeeze that extra few pence out of the masses? and to reply with something like it's for your benefit is beyond belief. maybe we would not mind so much if we could get an appointment when we are actually ill. how long do we the public have to endure these sort of schemes that are 'for our own good' it may only be a few pence to you but it adds up! and a few pence could be a loaf of bread to some people. if the NHS was better managed by people who knew what they were doing maybe so much money would not be wasted on administration and would filter down, so the local surgeries would not have to try and raise their own cash from us.
Alister williams, Lincoln

Quote:

What a very interesting 'statement'!

From 1/8/07, even a one minute call from a residential BT landline to a 5p/minute SurgeryLine 0844 number will cost 11p (6p call set-up fee + 5p for the first minute). 

It follows that, in 7 days time, the 82% who thought that 9p was a reasonable charge will then join the other 18% and make 100% who'll be dissatisfied with the minimum 11p cost of a call to their GP's SurgeryLine system!

Bearing in mind though that Scott Russell of NEG has said that patients calling the Surgery Line system spent two minutes on average on each call, the cost will be 16p (if you believe that 2 minutes claim).  In NEG-speak, that must be seen as "nearly double" the acceptable cost according to 82%.

OTOH, that'll be BT's fault for raising the call set-up fee to 6p.  Silly me.

A few more comments on The Times website about doctors 0844 numbers : ----

To Alan johnson, Leicester,
0844, which charges 5p per minute at all times, is substantially higher than a normal priced phone number. 01 and 02 numbers are free to people with a call package on both landlines and mobiles. Even the basic BT charge rate is much cheaper. So to my mind, 0844 IS a premium rate number -- it is MORE expensive than any normal call whichever way you look at it.
You may have been deceived by the phone industry and regulators. The meaning of Premium in the dictionary -- a sum of money paid in addition to a regular price. So your phone bill has it right. My phone bill describes 0844 as "Premium rate g6".
I don't think there is any confusion, ordinary people know when they are being overcharged!!
Mike Kelly, Reading,

My wife & I have been dismissed from our previous surgery, because I had the "audacity" to complain concerning this matter.And not only that, the surgery was being run on strictly military lines , with one only being able to make an appointment by phone Monday,Wednesday & Friday only at 8 AM, so everyone was waiting to get through at the same time. I never was able to make an appointment by phone and had to get in the car to drive to the surgery for 8 AM. If that isn't a rediculous state of affairs, I don't know what is, and have made an official complaint through the proper channels. This has occurred only recently, and am awaiting further developements.
Benjamin Sefton, Leeds, West Yorkshire

My gp surgery uses a 0844, i think through a company based in Basildon, and actually used to have a 0870 number. The 0870 number did cost me quite a bit more to call, but it was better than not being able to get through at all. Now they have a 0844, and it costs me about the same, so i have no problem with that.

We need easy access to our gp due to my partner's ill health. We seem to be connected straight away and then we can press an emergency option if we need to get straight through. Before it was ALWAYS engaged.
Leigh Healey, Huddersfield,

We recently had a 3rd party conduct a survey to the general public - findings showed that 66% had experienced problems contacting their GP, 71% said they would prefer to be placed in a queue rather than hearing the engaged tone all the time and 69% said they were frustrated when they were ill and could not contact their GP.
As regards to the cost of the call, only 3% said that they knew that 0844 was less than 5ppm (interesting, it is 4.2p + VAT), and the average cost of a call to a surgery with 0844 is just 9p. When asked if this was a reasonable charge 82% said it was, and they had no problem with it. More to the point, EVERY single call is answered first time every time and patients always know what is happening and can make informed choices. Surgeryline was designed very much from the patients perspective. One installation every day, for the last 3 years, proves this.
Jason Slade, Manchester, UK

To Alan Johnson, Leicester, I would say that the improvement in access to your surgery could easily have been achieved without using 0844. All it requires is a well organised telephone system which many other companies can supply. Ultimately someone still has to answer the call for you to make your appointment!
A normal 01 or 02 number could still be used. The problem is that your doctor decided to go with NEG, who promote 0844, because your doctor then has no capital outlay and other revenue costs, while his patients are paying through the nose, via the phone, for his new system (and for NEG's excessive profits). This is a very expensive solution but it is the patients who are footing the bill.
You may not see what the fuss is all about but for some people, old and sick, it can cost them many pounds per month which they cannot afford. While if they use a call plan their doctor calls could cost them nothing (all call plans exclude 0844). 0870, 0845 etc,
Mike Kelly, Reading,

To clarify the position when patients are abroad.

The consultation is deemed to be at the place where the patient originates the phonecall. As this call is abroad, the UK GP will not be registered with the medical regulatory authorities in that country and would be giving medical advice illegally.

Also, GPs will not be covered by medical indemnity and could be disciplined by the GMC for not registering as a working doctor in another country.

UK doctors when abroad are essentially lay, and have no medical privileges.

For their own protection, patients should not phone their home surgery when abroad and in all circumstances must contact local registered practising doctors for their medical care, and ensure they have appropriate travel medical insurance.
Dr C, Wales,

Dr Burrill says that he is not responsible for his patients' health while abroad, implying that he doesn't care if local doctors treating his patients are unable to get through to him on his 0844 number for details of medical history, drugs prescribed, etc. Has Dr Burrill forgoten his Hyppochratic Oath, or more recently (2006) the description by the General Medical Council of a doctor's duties:
Make the care of your patient your first concern;
Protect and promote the health of patients
A Schwartz, London, UK

A further 7 comments on the Daily Mail website about doctors 0844 numbers : ----

Is there no end to the display of sheer greed in British society today? These doctors have just been "awarded" a huge salary increase which obviously isn't enough, so they have to find other sources of revenue to support their abundant lifestyle.
- Kathab, Oxford, UK

It is a scandal that doctors should extract money from sick, old and vulnerable people who cannot afford it.

The bond of trust between patient and doctor is being put in jeopardy by doctors charging patients for phone calls. If doctors can be underhand, greedy and misleading towards patients on this matter how can patients trust their doctor on more important matters?

Even Ofcom are critical and say that public bodies and services should not allow higher cost phone numbers to be used. The use of 0844 should be stopped immediately. Or at the very least an alternative geographic local number should be also made available.

What are the BMA and GMC going to do about it?
- George Kendrick, Swindon Wilts

Yet another example of greed and rip off Britain.
- Alanjohn, Shoreham-by-Sea

GPs are paid outrageous salaries these days and now they have the nerve to fleece the taxpayers who pay their wages!
- Roger Kingston, York, North Yorks

Congrats on 10 years, Labour! It's much much worse than I remember pre 1997.
- Mr Reeve, London

But a spokesman for service provider Network Europe Group insisted its Surgery Line system helped patients by diverting them into a queue when lines were engaged.

Thereby creating a monetary gain where once there was none. If the surgery line was engaged people, just re dialed the number, now they are put in a queue that costs them money!

I wonder how many GP's practices would lose patients if it was more well known about these charges.
- A Connor, Blackpool, Lanc's

It is not possible to contact utility companies, banks, etc when you have genuine concerns or problems without paying through the nose for the calls. You then have to 'wait' on the line listening to a load of rubbish, then get put on hold while you wait for a 'busy' person to answer. It is about time the so called government watchdogs did something about it (by the way, you have to phone a premium rate number to get hold of them too!).
- Sp, Southampton

loddon wrote on Jul 25^th, 2007 at 10:39am:

Which is what I've been saying for ages and why, by definition, "standard" numbers can't vary in price.