SAYNOTO0870.COM - Spare a thought for UK businesses…

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #45 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 7:57am

0870advice.com wrote on Nov 10^th, 2006 at 12:20am:

An example of this, which many of you won't have picked up on is that when you dial an 0870 number from Feb 08, if the service provider you subscribe to choses to charge a rate for the call that is higher than the rate for an 01 or 02 call on your call plan, all they have to do is play a free to caller message at the start of the call notifying you of the charge. This will allow them to charge whatever they want to for that call. Not only this but, the owner of the 0870 number will be powerless to prevent this and will not benefit from any of that call charge, and this is the same for the host of the 0870 who will also be powerless to prevent this. If NTL or Vodafone or any other significant network chose to do this, then they are free to charge 50p per minute or £1 per minute, whatever they want....imagine the damage that could be done to the reputation of business that owns that number!?

Having said the above, the mobile networks have given us all access to some amazing technology that few of us can imagine being without now, and we should remember the vast sums of money they are trying to recoup back from the consumer as a result of the incredible amounts they paid to the treasury for 3G licences just a few years ago !

This was one of Ofcom's original utterly crazed proposals in their consultation document but I honestly had got the impression now that no one was going to charge more for an 0870 number than a GN after 1st Feb 2006. What possible excuse can Ofcom have for letting companies like Vodafone that do not even provide any access to accurate billing for their PAYG customers charging a hidden premium rate to 0870 when their underlying costs will be the same as 01/02 numbers? Shocked

One has to conclude that this kind of thing only goes on because Ofcom is an utterly corrupt regulator that totally ignores its duties under Section 3 (i) of the Communications Act 2003 and instead constantly tries to find ways for telco scammers to hang on to their ill gotten revenues by almost any means. This is what happens when you let someone like Stephen Carter interested only in business profitability and with not a clue about the public interest in charge of a so called regulator.

Why is this being allowed to happen. It seems only in order to provide yet further opportunities for the uk mobile phone mafia like Vodafone, O2, Orange, TMobile and Three to rip the public off without them even knowing it is happening (not least on Vodafone PAYG where you cannot get access to records of how your call credit was docked).

I think some serious press publicity on the fact that 0870 scamming is going to be able to continue and Ofcom having lied to the public is needed.

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #46 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 9:54am

andy9 wrote on Nov 10^th, 2006 at 3:58am:

Most networks charge between 5 and 30 pence a minute, broadly similar or actually the same as other UK calls. In fact, on tariffs where calls cost more to other networks, NGNs are almost always cheaper than these..

Actually they all did use to charge around 35/40p/min but when the new regulations came out to force them to be more upfront on these charges and give them more prominence, that's around when prices changed.

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O2 NGNs 15p , vs 35p or 25p>5p on landline or O2 calls, or 40p mobiles on other networks

Remember that o2 is one of the few that still reduce the cost of landline calls after 3mins from 25p/min for first 3mins that day, then 5p/min thereafter for the remainder of that day so therefore calls to NGN's are still a lot more expensive except if you are only on the phone to an NGN for less than 3mins a day which is extremely unlikely. Therefore, you do end up paying a premium for the call. Also, before this new regulation came into force, o2 used to charge upto 30p/min (daytime).

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Orange - NGNs 25p, to Orange 10p, landlines 25p, , other mobiles 35p

I was unable to find the cost to NGNs on Orange's website for either contracts or PAYG. Could you provide a link for us?

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Vodafone - identical to other calls on latest tariffs

Website is down now but I also believe the costs are the same as geographical calls on their latest tariffs which were only changed not so long ago. Again before this, the cost varied and was a lot higher than geographical calls.

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easyMobile 15p for all calls

I believe EasyMobile have always been this price and wasn't changed like the rest were when the new so-called price transparency regulation came into force.

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Virgin 10p or 15p NGNs vs 15p>5p landlines and Virgin, 35p others

Similar thing applies here to that of o2 and that is 15p/min for first 5mins of calls that day then drops to 5p/min.

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T-mobile - I need to check, but may be more than the new 12p tariff for other calls

40p/min to 0845/0870 on all PAYG tariffs, 10p/min for Contracts. T-Mobile only specifically mention calls to 0845/0870 & freephone - nothing is mentioned about 0844 and 0871 so this can't be confirmed although I assume they cost the same as 0845/0870.

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3 - NGNs 15p (check ?), 3 10p, landlines 15p, other mobiles 30p

3 charge 15p/min for calls to NGNs for most tariffs except off-peak where it costs 35p/min peak, 15p/min off-peak.

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I'm sorry, but whilst people are upset about the cost of NGN numbers, emotive fabrication of call charges over £1 a minute does nothing to help rational discussion, especially when they are on average probably cheaper than other off-network calls.

Whilst I agree that on average, calls to xnet cost more than same network or landlines, the difference is that most consumers are aware that calls to xnet maybe more expensive and/or not included in any inclusive tariffs. In comparison to NGN's, very few consumers are aware that calls to NGN's can be really expensive instead possibly thinking they cost the same as local/national calls.

In my response to Ofcom's many, many, many consultations on these numbers, I always stated that call announcements should be mandatory for calls to NGN's if they cost more than geographical calls. This I thought was a fair/balanced decision from both consumers and the teleco's point-of-view. This was really aimed at mobile networks because at the time calls to NGNs were on average around 30p/min but mobile networks have been forced to reduce this cost otherwise risk highlighting to their customers the actual cost of the calls by way of the new regulation that is meant to force them to equally highlight these costs the same as their geographical costs.

Although I aimed this free call announcement mostly at mobiles due their prices at the time but since then both NTL and Telewest have increased their 0845/0870 numbers and it now costs 10p/min (daytime) to ring an 0870 number.

Basically, the cost of these numbers remains higher than they need to be simply because OCP's are using them to earn extra revenue without, in most cases, consumers being fully aware of the actual costs involved in making calls to these numbers. I believe 10p/min (daytime) to an 0870 is THE highest for a landline provider!?!

Now for mobile networks, I understand that they must have more running costs than that of landline providers simply because they have to pay for cell sites (pay rent, maintenance, etc) hence why although I hate NGNs being on average 15p/min I can understand (to a certain degree) the need for these costs to be higher as they're probably used to subsidise the running costs of mobile network. However, when they were on average 30p/min+, it was purely to rip-off the consumers.

None of these additional overheads apply to landline providers like they do mobile networks so the main reason why some landline providers charge a lot more for calls to NGN's (eg 10p/min to an 0870 on NTL/TW) is purely to increase profit without, in most cases, consumers being aware.

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« Last Edit: Nov 10^th, 2006 at 10:02am by bbb_uk »

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #47 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 10:31am

One simple approach to the numbering and pricing regime (and this was proposed to Ofcom) would be to follow the system that is used in the Irish Republic and many other countries around the world whereby a levy is charged the recipient of the call if a call to them is made from a mobile phone. It is understandable that the network that starts a call wants to make some margin on carrying that call as its using up space on their network which they need to be making money to maintain. However reversing the charging mechaninism here would mean that its possible to have all networks charge exactly the same price for a call to any NGN regardless. Many businesses chose not to use 0800 as so many of their callers ring from mobile phones and they know full well that the call will not be free to them in any case, so why are they paying for the call to be free if the mobile network is charging that call at the same price as an 0845 or an 0870 number?

Applying this 'recipient pays surcharge' model would work for most businesses, the industry and provide consumers with very straight forward means of recognising how much they will be paying for each call - and this would not differ network to network. Ofcom could mandate the levels of surcharge industry wide. One of the reasons that mobile networks charge for freephone calls is to prevent charge card companies giving 0800 access to very cheap calls, blocking up the network capacity of the mobile network at the same time. If a surcharge of say 1 or 2ppm was applied to the model below for calls origanited from mobiles or least cost routing service providers we'd have our transparrent and universally applied simple numbering scheme!

080X = Free to Caller Originator Surchage 1 to 2ppm paid by owner of number.
081X = 1ppm to Caller
082X = 2ppm to Caller
083X = 3ppm to Caller
084X = 4ppm to Caller
085X = 5ppm to Caller
086X = 6ppm to Caller
087X = 7ppm to Caller
088X = 8ppm to Caller
089X = 9ppm to Caller

Technically the above is achievable.

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #48 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 10:42am

0870advice.com wrote on Nov 9^th, 2006 at 11:37pm:

People that run businesses are smart people (for the most part) and selling lies to them results in one thing....very few sales! I disagree with your point here and would say that virtually all businesses are fully aware of what the caller is paying to call their business!

I'm afraid I would disagree with that simply because (again) that CPs and OCPs still claim that calls to 084x are local rate and calls to 087x are national rate which we all agree is misleading which would technically mean any company signing a contract with such businesses could easily get out of that contract due to being mislead.

There is proof that gov departments (and therefore businesses) were mislead simply because the JobCentre in their response to an ofcom consultation basically said they didn't realise that their 0845 was so expensive and thought it was actually local rate. This is also why god-forbid the next caualty/info line following a terrorist attack will have a geographical number as well. This is also why Homeoffice/Ofcom don't use NGNs and why some GPs have stated that their so-called new telephony system (an 0844 number - costing 4p/min all the time) was so expensive from mobiles and they have received complaints from patients.

Basically, because I do firmly believe that a lot of the time these companies/gov departments do think that calls to NGNs are local/national rate as they have no other reason to think otherwise when they were probably missold their NGN on this basis.

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The regulatory environment has allowed for the growth in the use of 0870 whether this is right or wrong, its not the fault of the business owners, they are following basic business principles.

I agree. Companies are making full use of something that Ofcom/Oftel have allowed to continue unhindered until now (to a certain degree anyhow).

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I disagree that 0870 / 0845 were never national / local rate, they were infact tied to the BT standard national and local rate up until quite recently, although non discountable.

It is my understanding that until 2 years ago this was correct simply because calls to 0845 were charged same as local rate and calls to 0870 were charged same as national rate call.

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Revenue share is rarely the key driver and is normally a drop in the ocean compared with the savings a business realises by maximising staff and infrastructure resources. It is simply not possible to get the same level of call handling performance using geographic numbering versus non geographic numbering. Business owners can gain all the benefits of NGN's with freephone, but simple business principles tend to apply and many decide that rather than pay many thousands of pounds to receive calls, they will generate an income which they can then invest back into call handling efficiency, possibly more staff too!

I wish I could believe this but why are so many businesses (including one man bandits) using these numbers? Why would a one-man bandit or even small firm that only probably has one or two people answering phone calls still use 0870s, etc? Simply, it's extra profit for them without us consumers being aware (in most) cases.

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In an ideal world every business would pay for us all to call them, but that can put strain on an enterprise because it often encourages lots of time waster calls, which is more of a problem in terms of the staff time wasted (which is expensive) versus funding the cost of the call. Many organisations choose to use higher charging NGN's as a deterrant to time waster calls where information a caller may require can be found on a website or in a manual

This is weird when in the states the most common number found is a freephone number even for companies like BA. So by your reasoning, only in the UK does using a freephone, a geographical or at the very least an 0845 number bring loads of problems like time-wasters and those that didn't bother checking a website, etc first but in the states none of these problems occur hence why they use freephone?

The simple truth is that calls to higher costs NGN's is becoming the "norm" and because it's been accepted in the UK as the "norm", it continues. The real reason why its unfortunately been accepted in the UK is that many consumers are not aware of the true costs and the fact that revenue is earned. That is until recently with all the bad-press.

Don't get me wrong I understand fully where you are coming from with regards to staff costs, etc all I would like to see is "full disclosure" on these numbers. That is consumers should be aware of the true cost of ringing these numbers and that revenue is earned. Exactly the same as what happens now with 09x numbers. Then we see if the wide-spread use of these numbers continues which I doubt it would simply because consumers would then be in a position to make a fully informed decision on whether to go with that business or not, etc.

If us consumers knowing all these facts, still continue to ring these numbers then that is fine and no one can be blamed at all then - not the companies, etc.

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« Last Edit: Nov 10^th, 2006 at 10:46am by bbb_uk »

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #49 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 10:58am

0870advice.com wrote on Nov 10^th, 2006 at 10:31am:

Applying this 'recipient pays surcharge' model would work for most businesses, the industry and provide consumers with very straight forward means of recognising how much they will be paying for each call - and this would not differ network to network. Ofcom could mandate the levels of surcharge industry wide. One of the reasons that mobile networks charge for freephone calls is to prevent charge card companies giving 0800 access to very cheap calls, blocking up the network capacity of the mobile network at the same time. If a surcharge of say 1 or 2ppm was applied to the model below for calls origanited from mobiles or least cost routing service providers we'd have our transparrent and universally applied simple numbering scheme!

Presumably if businesses with NGNs in general agreed to pay the extra carriage costs associated with termination of the call on an NGN network rather than their customers paying for the privilege then all 084/7 NGNs could be delivered to the caller at the same price as calling 01/02 geographic phone numbers on that network.

I find it odd indeed that you argue for price parity between the cost of calling GNs and NGNs for calls originated from mobiles but not for those originated on a landline? Undecided

We don't ask that calling an 084/7 number costs no more than an 01/02 number on a mobile phone. We simply ask that the markup over a standard call price is the same as the underlying extra costs to the mobile phone company in conveying the call instead of many multiples thereof.

Vodafone's enormous price differential between included in bundled minutes + fixed 75p surcharge for roaming Vodafone Passport calls to 01/02 numbers versus 99p per minute at all time to 080/4/7 numbers is an obvious case in point of an obscene pricing differential not justified by the true variation in the underlying costs of carrying the call to the number.

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #50 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 11:05am

bbb_uk wrote on Nov 10^th, 2006 at 10:42am:

It is my understanding that until 2 years ago this was correct simply because calls to 0845 were charged same as local rate and calls to 0870 were charged same as national rate call.

Wrong bbb.

Both 0845 and 0870 numbers have cost much more than the cheapest cost of routing a call to an 01 or 02 number from a BT landline using the cheapest indirect access call carrier for at least the last 8 years. Also BT Option 3 started a lot longer ago than 2 years ago and always excluded 084 and 087 calls but covered all 01 and 02 calls.

For instance in 1998 a UK GN cost me 2p per minute on my BT Line with AXS Telecom but calling an 0870 number cost 7.91p per minute and calling 0845 cost me 4p per minute in the weekday daytime (with BT as AXS simply wouldn't carry calls to these numbers on their service).

Therefore these NGN salesman have been knowingly selling numbers that did not cost many price aware consumers the price of a GN fixed line call for many, many years. It is not a recent problem. The fact that you yourself did not become aware that 0845 or 0870 calls could cost you extra until 2004 is presumably because you were a happie little chappie making all your calls with BT until that time and not shopping around for a better deal for calling GN numbers?

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #51 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 11:09am

0870advice.com wrote on Nov 9^th, 2006 at 11:37pm:

The changing numbers problem is real. Many businesses will have to respray vehicle fleets, most will have to reprint stationary but the biggest problem is that numbers stay in the public domain for a long time....for example, numbers printed on tins of paint, packaging, warrentees, catalogues etc. can often be dialled years after they are printed and a business has relocated. This is why it is so important for businesses to avoid changing numbers if at all possible. Changes in the big number change are somewhat different as it involved a universal change to just the prefix.

I'm in agreement that costs are involved but this is why 2 years nearly was given for companies to do this overtime to reduce to a bare minimum as possible the costs of changing.

Businesses are very happy to do this when changing from a geographical to a NGN, or do it without moaning when forced to under any 'big number changes' but when it comes to going from a revenue generating number to another number, they start to moan!!

I also agree (and have previously stated this) that there are legitimate reasons for NGNs like one single number that doesn't need to be changed if they move premises, and network features like Call routing, IVR, etc but all this can still be done on 0870 or the new 03x number range.

I like to believe that some companies/gov departments are purely using these numbers for the features that NGNs bring and not to make money from people calling them. This is why we'll see which companies are more interested in the 'revenue' they make than anything else because they will migrate to either 084x or 0871 from their current 0870.

In fact some companies have already started doing this which shows they're more interested in the revenue than the network features these numbers bring.

I disagree with your website, 0870advice, that companies would have to then start paying to receive calls on 0870? Why would this be necessary, unless it's to increase the money that CP/OCP make. A line-rental charge or a small monthly fee for every 'network feature' would be sufficient. It's too early to say that businesses using 0870 will have to pay x amount per minute for calls they receive or is the reason why you are saying this is that GlobalNumbers will start charging x amount per minute for calls received to 0870 once 2008 arrives much similar to what you charge now for businesses using one of your 0845.

As I said in an earlier post, a lot of other CP/OCP don't actually charge for incoming calls on 0845 numbers.

In fact, in one of Ofcom's statements I'm sure I read that Ofcom said any company wanting such features should be expected to pay for them which I believe is correct and this is exactly what Inland Revenue and DWP (JobCentre Plus) told me in an FOI. They basically use these numbers for the features and what they thought was just a local rate call for consumers but they now realise this isn't true and call charges can (and do) vary from one network to another.

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #52 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 11:22am

NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 10^th, 2006 at 11:05am:

Wrong bbb.

Both 0845 and 0870 numbers have cost much more than the cheapest cost of routing a call to an 01 or 02 number from a BT landline using the cheapest indirect access call carrier for at least the last 8 years. Also BT Option 3 started a lot longer ago than 2 years ago and always excluded 084 and 087 calls but covered all 01 and 02 calls.

Sorry, I should have made that post more clear.

I meant that calls from a BT landline to a geographical were exactly the same as 0845 or 0870 and this is why they were referred to as local/national rate because most consumers only had or could use BT or weren't aware of the cheaper alternatives available so therefore the vast majority of landline telephony customers did pay this rate.

This is why upto about 2 years ago both the ASA and Ofcom didn't stop or entertain any complaint that 0845/0870 wasn't local/national rate simply because for most people it was local/national rate because of BT Standard rate where calls to these numbers were the same as either geographical or NGNs.

However, when BT forced their customers from BT Standard to BT Together 1, this so-called 0845 is local and 0870 is national rate was deemed inaccurate simply because the only landline telephony customers paying these rates were those on the little used/known Light User Scheme. And it was this very reason why the ASA now stop the misleading use of these numbers being described as local/national rate.

BT's decision to force their customers from BT Standard to BT Together 1 was purely for money reasons and was unpopular (obviously) but at the same time this helped us stop the continued misdescribed cost of these calls. I realise this wasn't BT's intention at all but as it happens without the removal of BT Standard then I don't believe ASA and Ofcom would be of the opinion that 0845 wasn't local and 0870 wasn't national.

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #53 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 11:31am

Dear bbb,

The 084/7 scam has been going on for at least 8 years and loads of telecoms customers including BT Option 3 customers have been losing out due to the existence of the scam since a lot longer ago than July 2004.

The fact that you personally seem to have used BT Option 1 and not routed your calls away from 0845 or 0870 until July 2004 is clearly your problem and reflects your comparative lack of long term history in the struggle against these numbers.

I can assure you that I have been trying to avoid 084/7 numbers and 0345 and 0990 numbers before them to find GNs instead for at least the last 8 years.

The fact that the ASA didn't take any action earlier is what allowed the "its only a local rate or only a national rate" call lie to grow up in the first place. Once BT had Option 3 and excluded 084/7 calls (way pre July 2004) the ASA should as a minimum have stopped calls being called local and national rate at that stage.

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« Last Edit: Nov 10^th, 2006 at 12:01pm by NGMsGhost »

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #54 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 11:37am

0870advice.com wrote on Nov 9^th, 2006 at 11:37pm:

People that run businesses are smart people (for the most part) and selling lies to them results in one thing....very few sales ! I disagree with your point here and would say that virtually all businesses are fully aware of what the caller is paying to call their business! The fact is that the regulatory environment has allowed for this and businesses owners have made decissions based on finance, which is a plain fact of life commercial approach of most business owners... keep costs down, increase revenue, increase profits, maximise resources etc.!

And why do you think charging customers a hidden premium rate for ordinary customer service calls has never been popular in the USA and indeed most companies run 800 customer service lines.

Is this because:-

(a) 800 numbers don't involve the ripoff surcharge costs of our 0800 numbers for receiving the calls

or

(b) Because the US system has a clear NTNP that does not allow for deceiving customers that premium rate calls are normal calls

or

(c) That US customers are more militant in standing up for their rights against such ripoffs

or

(d) that unlike Ofcom the US FCC is not a corrupt regulator infiltrated by business telco interests and instead stands firm in ensuring proper price competition and price disclosure in the US telecoms industry?

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #55 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 11:58am

Discussion of Vodafone Passport or Stop-the-clock does not really counter my statement that another person's assertion about call charges at £1.20 a minute is way over the top. I stick with the suggestion that calls to NGNs are more often priced between same- and off-network mobiles,

I specifically said excepting roaming tariffs, which can be near £1 a minute for all calls though are falling (like 35p O2) but if someone wants to use Vodafone Passport to call an NGN from abroad, it is not difficult to use a 18185 or calling card account, costing a few pence over the Vodafone tariff.

The same goes for Stop-the-clock - 18185 costs 4 or 2 pence a minute for 0870

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #56 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 4:46pm

bbb_uk wrote on Nov 10^th, 2006 at 9:54am:

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O2 NGNs 15p , vs 35p or 25p>5p on landline or O2 calls, or 40p mobiles on other networks

Remember that o2 is one of the few that still reduce the cost of landline calls after 3mins from 25p/min for first 3mins that day, then 5p/min thereafter for the remainder of that day so therefore calls to NGN's are still a lot more expensive except if you are only on the phone to an NGN for less than 3mins a day which is extremely unlikely. Therefore, you do end up paying a premium for the call. Also, before this new regulation came into force, o2 used to charge upto 30p/min (daytime).

I hoped I'd alluded to the bit about 25 to 5p rates, albeit highly condensed, and likewise for Virgin later

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Orange - NGNs 25p, to Orange 10p, landlines 25p, , other mobiles 35p

I was unable to find the cost to NGNs on Orange's website for either contracts or PAYG. Could you provide a link for us?

pay as you go price guide, page 22
http://www1.orange.co.uk/service_plans/downloads/payg_services_costs.pdf

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T-mobile - I need to check, but may be more than the new 12p tariff for other calls

40p/min to 0845/0870 on all PAYG tariffs, 10p/min for Contracts. T-Mobile only specifically mention calls to 0845/0870 & freephone - nothing is mentioned about 0844 and 0871 so this can't be confirmed although I assume they cost the same as 0845/0870.

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I'm sorry, but whilst people are upset about the cost of NGN numbers, emotive fabrication of call charges over £1 a minute does nothing to help rational discussion, especially when they are on average probably cheaper than other off-network calls.

Whilst I agree that on average, calls to xnet cost more than same network or landlines, the difference is that most consumers are aware that calls to xnet maybe more expensive and/or not included in any inclusive tariffs. In comparison to NGN's, very few consumers are aware that calls to NGN's can be really expensive instead possibly thinking they cost the same as local/national calls.

In my response to Ofcom's many, many, many consultations on these numbers, I always stated that call announcements should be mandatory for calls to NGN's if they cost more than geographical calls.

I was replying to a post specifically about very high rates to NGNs from pay-as-you-go mobiles.

As we seem to have established, on payg only T-mobile charges significantly more for NGNs than other landlines; on O2 and Virgin it depends a bit on relative amounts to whichever destinations. The rest are the same rates as landlines.

There are certainly none at anything like the £1.20 I was refuting, and I doubt we'll be given any proof that they ever were.

What this has made me think about again is using the old Orange OVP Virgin tariff to make calls to UK mobiles and int'l landlines and mobiles via an 0870 number for 5p a minute.

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #57 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 7:41pm

On the point you make in your first paragraph, I'd say yes there are people in business that are like that, even though it is a massive generalisation. I am less cynical, and in my day to day dealings with business owners I find this to rarely be the case. Most desire to earn an honest living and provide a descent service. I don't think businesses are to blame for the regulatory environment they work within, there are many restrictions, regulations and guidelines businesses have to work within and these restrictions typically make it harder and harder as time goes by to run a profitable business and pay staff salaries.

Re your second para - I stand my ground here, but do acknowledge that discounted call costs have fallen, beginning around the time you state, what I have said is that the published BT standard rate was until quite recently mirrored by the 0870 and 0845 charges.

I'm not arguing the point that there is a price differential between discounted 01 and 02 numbers of varying degrees versus 0870, however it is not the fault of UK businesses that this is so. We all know that change is rarely effected in this country without a significant number of people stamping their feet! This is what you guys have done here and you have effected change, the problem is that the change doesn't work for the consumer, doesn't work for the industry and very significantly doesn't work for businesses - and if things don't work for businesses then the knock on effect will come down to the ordinary man and woman in the street!

0870 is actually the same as 0990 and was changed so that 09 could become premium rate range, where as prior to this the start of the number range did not reflect in any way the price of the call and there were different prefixes for each network, freephone from Mercury (later C&W) was 0500, local rate for for the same was 0645 and national rate was 0541 versus BT 0800 (10 digit) 0345 local rate and 0990 national rate, even more confusing that now!

Your reference that my points surrounding number change are 'utter tosh' is rather blinkered. The reference case you make to easyjet respraying their fleet of aircraft is a reference to a marketing decission that was in line with their efforts to become "the webs favourite airline" ! The change to a web address was not in response to any numbering change enforced upon them, they decided to do this purely for marketing purposes and had significant budget to do so, in addition to this they were making efforts to take web only bookings and phone bookings were subject to premium rate call and a surcharge. Their respray was simply in line with their marketing objectives! Many other businesses however will not have budget to do so and in a great many cases businesses have impelemented non geographic numbers so that they would not need to reprint, respray etc. for the forseable future! It is both time consuming and expensive for a large number of organisations, and the consumer again will pay for this in the cost of the product or service. I'm not using this as a defence to say that the status quo should stay the same, but the ruling is going to affect businesses and many drastically so! This is a great shame when all parties could have been satisfied for the most part (and within reason) with a sensible and measured approach to the numbering framework.

I wouldn't say that compulsory price announcements are a bad thing but, if the numbering framework were clear, and it is possible to make it clear and back that up with consumer education, the need for price announcements would be minimal, as lets face it....do we all really want to hear a price announcement everytime we call a call centre if we already know what the call is going to cost us by looking at the number we are dialling?

You are probably aware, but for those of you that aren't, when a mobile (or other landline operator) charges a higher rate for a non geographic number, all the extra margin from those extra charges is retained by that operator, the business advertising the number nor the telco hosting it receive a share of any of that additional revenue. It is technically possible for the host network to be charged an inbound levy by BT for calls originated by AN other network which BT would then pass on to the originating network as their margin for the call. The owner of the number could then be billed this surcharge by the number host. This would be preferrable to a large number of businesses and would see freephone use grow once again. Freephone use has been stifled by the fact that the mobile networks charge the caller anyway, so if you are a business owner you are discouraged from using freephone if you can't even guarantee that you're picking up the tab for your customers to call you! I can imagine MBNA feel somewhat like mugs paying all that money when half their callers are being charged regardless! The model I proposed in a previous posting can work and could result in a flat rate charge to all callers regardless of which network they are calling from. I believe that businesses would welcome such changes with open arms! A great many of them would then gravitate towards 0800 or the lower charged number ranges in preference to the higher charged ranges. Most businesses primary aim is to answer as many calls as they can as quickly as they can so they can sell you as much of their stuff as they possibly can.

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Shiggaddi

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #58 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 9:17pm

Here we go again, businesses having to pay to change their 0870 numbers back to geographic, and the huge cost of respraying vans, and changing letterheads etc.

I accept that before, companies made a choice to change, and knew they would have to change letterheads, but the cost back then wasn't enough to deter companies from changing to 0870.

So why is the cost so much now. What has changed in the last few years, that companies don't have budgets to respray vans, or change letterheads. Companies can change logos on a regular basis, which involves alot more work than changing a number. E-mail and web addresses have been added to stationary, and vans, but again, no complaints about the cost.

Every business has had change forced upon them, and if they feel they will be out of business because of it, then it is down to the poor management of the company. Restaurants have had to deal with a recent non smoking rule, and they complained it would affect their business, by offending their smoking customers. Instead more non smokers visit these places.

In the last 10 years or so, since NGN numbers came on the scene, technology has evolved alot. Telecoms equipment that would have cost a fortune, can now be in the reach of many small businesses. Phone calls to geographic numbers is now almost free. Most people have mobiles. Calls to 0870 numbers in this time have remained almost the same. The lower cost of delivering the service, has instead been passed on to the telecoms companies supplying the numbers, rather than through cheaper calls to the public. Some of this has been passed onto the company using the 0870 number.

The end result has been that telecoms companies have been scaremongering businesses about the cost of changing their 0870 number, because they stand to lose more than the most out of the deal. In the past, they supplied free telecoms equipment, rather than revenue share. This telecoms equipment might have cost a great deal 10 years ago, but is within easy reach of any business now. A small office would need a lower spec than a large call centre employing 1000 people.

Perhaps companies should listen to what customers want. Some spend alot on mystery shopping, because they're keen to see how their staff perform, and use the results to put things right. Why not listen to your customers now, when we say we don't want 0870, and 0845 numbers. There are many companies that use geo numbers and they are thriving. I'm sure that the loss of the revenue will be replaced by customer goodwill.

I'm not arguing the point that there is a price differential between discounted 01 and 02 numbers of varying degrees versus 0870, however it is not the fault of UK businesses that this is so. We all know that change is rarely effected in this country without a significant number of people stamping their feet! This is what you guys have done here and you have effected change, the problem is that the change doesn't work for the consumer, doesn't work for the industry and very significantly doesn't work for businesses - and if things don't work for businesses then the knock on effect will come down to the ordinary man and woman in the street!

If us customers spend less on 0870 calls, then we will have more money to spend with these businesses. The people that stand to lose most are the 0870 suppliers. Insurance comapaines will still sell insurance. Customers will still call, but if we pay less for our calls, and companies buy telecoms equipment at the market price (by paying fixed costs for the machines etc) then the only losers will be 0870 suppliers like yourself!!

I'm sure most businesses can cope with the change, given the right information, without it affecting their operations, or causing bad customer service.

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Re: Spare a thought for UK businesses…
Reply #59 - Nov 10^th, 2006 at 11:28pm

The key point I was making is that a number change is not necessary to achieve the majority of aims you aspire to. We are clearly never going to agree on whether it is or isn't a big deal to change numbers but, the consumer has not got what they wanted out of the changes being imposed by Ofcom, so businesses going through yet another number change benefits no one! The measures Ofcom have put in place do not work in practice and will not achieve what you are hoping they will. The industry has accepted the changes and is set to work with them. We are merely saying that come Feb 08 things will not be significantly different from how they are now for the consumer, but the industry and businesses are left with a bit of a mess to work with.

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