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One possible suggestion for some action (Read 11,493 times)
BenDToy
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One possible suggestion for some action
Nov 9th, 2006 at 2:17pm
 
Yesterday as I drove along the M62 I started to realise the scale of the 0870 problem. Numerous vans and lorries with 0870 contact numbers on the livery.
I do not need to relate the list of culprits to this group, but there seemed to be hundreds of them.
One worthy of particular comment was an ageing van, with a plumber's name on the side, obviously a one-man-band, had an 0870 number. What on earth is happening, and how compacent and stupid are we in this country?
I made a note of one company - for info they are a company called BID Group Ltd, in Bolton, Lancs - and I sent an email to them, condemning their use of 0870 and politely pointing out the error of their ways. I also included a link to this site.
How about if every contributor to this site took it on themselves to send an email or letter to say 5 companies per week, doing something similar? This could be a fairly standard format letter (more or less) because they would all go to different destinations, and would be relatively quick and easy to do. Even if it had minimal effect, wouldn't it make us all feel better? And it might just help to turn the tide.
The message would need to be non-technical, and in fairly simple language. I hope that someone more literate and knowledgeable than me could be persuaded to put some sort of template together.
I am offering this idea up for comment, because I want to feel I am doing something tangible, and this seems to fit the bill. What do other people think?
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Barbara
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Re: One possible suggestion for some action
Reply #1 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 3:21pm
 
I agree, this would be a great idea.   I have previously suggested some form of standard letter basically to ensure that the facts given are accurate and that we all emphasise the same points to avoid going off at tangents and diluting the meaning.   I think the main point is the extra cost involved in calling NGNs; I know why the issue about announcements has been raised but I would hate that the become the thrust of the campaign.   I KNOW ngns cost more but knowing that does not always mean I can avoid them, particuarly when they relate to govt/public sector organisations.
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mikeinnc
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Re: One possible suggestion for some action
Reply #2 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 4:27pm
 
One question I have often wondered about. If, as a business, I sign up for an 0870 number (say) to be linked to my normal geographic number, is there any legal penalty if I disclose my normal geographic number as an alternative? In other words, do the providers of these numbers have a contract that basically says "thou shalt NOT disclose your geographic number on pain of transportation for ten years..." or some such draconian penalty. (Actually, it's my understanding that if that were the case, the queue of Poms wanting to leave the sinking ship would stretch half way round the globe....... Grin)

Seriously, though - if there is a legal provision incorporated in the contract for the 0870 number, doesn't that help to explain why some companies, who might otherwise be sympathetic to our concerns, are running scared from disclosing their geographic number? If there is the threat of a lawsuit hanging over you with unspecified damages, doesn't that rather negate your concern for having been led up the garden path by the lies and misrepresentations of the number provider?

I'm unsure if this area has ever been investigated before?
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Barbara
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Re: One possible suggestion for some action
Reply #3 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 5:21pm
 
If that were the case, why do some organisations happily provide geog alternatives while others refuse?   I don't think it can just be that they use different providers, as Heinz said elsewhere it is GREED!   Some public sector orgs have even provided geog nos under FOIs so I don't think it can be a legal/contractual problem.  Also, if that were the case how would (senior) employees etc take personal calls?  I am sure they wouldn't want friends and families paying the high cost of calling ngns!
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NGMsGhost
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Re: One possible suggestion for some action
Reply #4 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 5:46pm
 
mikeinnc wrote on Nov 9th, 2006 at 4:27pm:
Seriously, though - if there is a legal provision incorporated in the contract for the 0870 number, doesn't that help to explain why some companies, who might otherwise be sympathetic to our concerns, are running scared from disclosing their geographic number? If there is the threat of a lawsuit hanging over you with unspecified damages, doesn't that rather negate your concern for having been led up the garden path by the lies and misrepresentations of the number provider?

I'm unsure if this area has ever been investigated before?


It will be down to the individual contracts I'm perfectly sure.  I strongly suspect the BBC has massive penalty clauses stopping them from disclosing the underlying geographic numbers for their many 0870 contact centre numbers.

The most abusive 0870 setups always involve routing the calls only to a Voip destination that has no GN equivalent or a new GN series that is set up especially for the purpose that is known only to certain senior directors of the scam organisation involved.
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Shiggaddi
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Re: One possible suggestion for some action
Reply #5 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 5:56pm
 
Doctors surgeries are one example of being tied into a contract, where they cannot disclose the geographic number.  That is because the surgeries are not told of the number, and their old geo number gets disconnected, or has a message asking to ring the new number.

But alot of companies, especially larger ones, supply numbers to ring from abroad, which of course anyone in this country can do, and it gets through to the same call centre.  However it might get routed to a different queueing system than the 0870 number, in which the geo equivilent is never discolsed, or of course it's routed to a VOIP system.
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I realy hait itt wen peeple canot spel proply. Itt getts onn mye nervs sew mutch annd streses mee owt. Knot onley iz itt vary bade speling butt allso bade gramer.
 
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mikeinnc
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Re: One possible suggestion for some action
Reply #6 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 10:49pm
 
From Barbara:-

Quote:
Also, if that were the case how would (senior) employees etc take personal calls?  I am sure they wouldn't want friends and families paying the high cost of calling ngns!


...and you think that most of them don't get their home phone bills paid as a perk of the job?  Wink

That's half the problem - it's the poor everyday, cash-strapped, ordinary consumer that bears the ultimate cost. Who cares what a 0870 call costs when someone else pays the bill?

Let them eat cake.......  Angry
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NGMsGhost
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Re: One possible suggestion for some action
Reply #7 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 10:55pm
 
mikeinnc wrote on Nov 9th, 2006 at 10:49pm:
...and you think that most of them don't get their home phone bills paid as a perk of the job?


Unlikely to actually be true I think Mike although I understand your sentiment in feeling that it might be true.

What is more likely is that these people are so disgustingly well paid and so busy that they just pay their phone bill on a direct debit and regard it as a trivial cost against their own £100k+ per annum funded by this whole disgusting ripoff industry.  As a result they never examine their own home phone bill in details.

Also they will be in the office 5 days a week and have a company mobile so I bet most of their 084/7 calls are on the company fixed line phone or company mobile phone.  That is why their own home phone bill may still look pretty reasonable.
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BenDToy
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Re: One possible suggestion for some action
Reply #8 - Nov 10th, 2006 at 12:30am
 
Can I just (politely) make a small point here please? I started this thread in an attempt to gauge opinion for a suggestion to take some specific and tangible, action, rather than the usual "talking shop" that I think this site has become.
However interesting this discussion, it is not what I set out to achieve, and in fact it kind of proves a point I made in a previous thread about the constant repetition of the same points and details about which most of us are already in agreement. Can I ask again, what other contributors think about the idea of sending emails or letters, making simple and clear points about the use of NGNs, and whether someone would be prepared to put together a draft template, which could be edited to suit? Comments please.
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NGMsGhost
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Re: One possible suggestion for some action
Reply #9 - Nov 10th, 2006 at 12:48am
 
BenDToy wrote on Nov 10th, 2006 at 12:30am:
Can I just (politely) make a small point here please? I started this thread in an attempt to gauge opinion for a suggestion to take some specific and tangible, action, rather than the usual "talking shop" that I think this site has become.

However interesting this discussion, it is not what I set out to achieve, and in fact it kind of proves a point I made in a previous thread about the constant repetition of the same points and details about which most of us are already in agreement. Can I ask again, what other contributors think about the idea of sending emails or letters, making simple and clear points about the use of NGNs, and whether someone would be prepared to put together a draft template, which could be edited to suit? Comments please.


Oh believe me we have taken all the proactive steps too of responding to Ofcom consultations, writing to MPs, writing to newspapers and so on and been resoundingly ignored because New Labour and various powerful friends of New Labour who work at the Telcos and at Ofcom do not want the current money making 084/7system to end.

Endless people have complained to the senior management of the call centres of these companies.  Comments have been Ignored and obfuscated via numerous cynical means.  We respond to Ofcom consultations but Ofcom proceeds with the original Telco centric plans.

Still if you have the magic solution that will bring action and the end of 084/7 numbers tomorrow BenDToy then I suggest you go right ahead and get on with it.  Also with regard to this website being more effective in lobbying that unfortunately does not suit the agenda of the site owner Daniel who did not even respond to the last important ICSTIS pre-consultation on 0871 numbers and has never called a public meeting or social meeting of the site's members.  Daniel likes simply to have a popular website but he does not actually want the scam to end as that would mean the end of his popular website.

Lastly BenDToy as you are so big on the direct action front then no doubt you will have responded to the last important ICSTIS pre-consultation on the regulation of 0871 numbers?  Perhaps you would care to send me a PM to tell me just which of those respondents you were given that you clearly believe in going right to the heart of the matter and that posting here is a waste of time.

See www.icstis.org.uk/service_providers/responsestoconsultations/0871.asp

and

www.icstis.org.uk/pdfs_news/0871.pdf

Did I also mention that I had the Council I used to be a member of pass a resolution baning any use of 084/7 numbers?  Still all I do is prattle away here and never achieve anything worthwhile at all in your view? Roll Eyes
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« Last Edit: Mar 28th, 2008 at 7:46pm by Forum Admin »  

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NGMsGhost
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Re: One possible suggestion for some action
Reply #10 - Nov 10th, 2006 at 1:01am
 
BenDToy wrote on Nov 10th, 2006 at 12:30am:
Can I ask again, what other contributors think about the idea of sending emails or letters, making simple and clear points about the use of NGNs, and whether someone would be prepared to put together a draft template, which could be edited to suit? Comments please.


Form letters are usually ignored after a while because they are treated as a petition and petitions are usually ignored.  The fact that large numbers of consumers express their opposition to this scam in their own words should carry more weight.  Also the telcos and call centres already know perfectly well why they shouldn't be using these numbers - they don't have to be educated about that.  Its merely a numbers game of how many customers are complaining.  Unless a huge number of customers write in they won't take any notice.  Part of their scam is to pretend that its only a local or national rate number and you are the only customer they have ever had a complaint from on this issue.

But whatever we suggest we will be ignored due to the cynicism of the long term executives of OfcoN like New Labour crony Ed Richards.  Also several New Labour ministers and their senior civil servants were actively complicit in allowing the whole 084/7 call scam industry to be set up in the first place.

Short of manning the picket lines and the burning barricades outside Ofcom's palatial offices on the Thames at Southwark Bridge (not a bad idea I must say and I do hope that Ofcom's sold his soul to the devil former BBC Communications Director is reading this) there's no way of changing their minds because they simply employ an impotent panel of sycophants called the Ofcom Consumer Panel (www.ofcomconsumerpanel.org.uk) to tell them they are doing an excellent job and then totally ignore the views of real consumers.  They also augment this with various carefully manipulated market research surveys with spun questions to prove that customers are quite happy with the 084/7 call centre ripoff.
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BenDToy
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Re: One possible suggestion for some action
Reply #11 - Nov 11th, 2006 at 12:37am
 
Thanks NGMsGhost for that helpful post. I apologise if I have offended you in some way; you clearly have been very active and for that I applaud you.
However I think you may have missed the point. I was asking, as a lesser mortal who doesn't understand the technicalities and finer points of the debate, for some advice from the regular contributors as to whether I could lend support in some small way, complete with a suggestion of something I felt able to offer.
Following a single relevant reply, from Barbara, echoing what I was suggesting, the thread then became a debate about the finer points of 087/4 contracts and VOIP services and doctors' surgeries...!

Part of me thinks that the real guilty ones are the gullible and complacent British public, who as ever, tolerate these scams, because the majority of us are too lazy/disinterested/busy to care! A previous poster suggested that in the US there would be "blood on the streets" and that is a relevant point. Or perhaps we can see it as a tax on laziness or stupidity - for now anyway. For the record, I actually have no personal axe to grind on this, as my bill is paid by my employer, and I still almost never call 087/4 numbers.

I now see that I am in danger of getting sucked into the trap. I have made my point in my own rambling way, so enough from me. Please be aware that I was not accusing individuals of anything, just trying to offer my help to further the cause in some small way. I apologise to anyone who feels that they were being criticised. That was not my intention. I know there has been some good work done by the members of this site, and I congratulate you all for this.
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« Last Edit: Nov 11th, 2006 at 12:38am by BenDToy »  
 
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catcoddler
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Re: One possible suggestion for some action
Reply #12 - Nov 12th, 2006 at 5:57pm
 
1. I assume that businesses/organizations are not compelled by law to provide a geo number when requested.
2. I wonder - is there any mileage to be had from a social exclusion route - eg people who are on a tight budget/fixed income try hard to control their living costs.  One of the ways they achieve this is by paying a monthly geo number phone charge for unlimited calls.
3.  If organizations fail to provide a geo no., these people are forced to use a non-geo.
4. This leaves them, along withe the rest of us, in the very vulnerable positon of  making a call, but not knowing beforehand what they will be charged.
5.  Given the awful cost of non-geos, it is a real danger that some people will not call the very organizations which are set up to help them, because they are afraid of the bill.  Consequently, there may be a [b]social exclusionb] issue here.
6.  Therefore, critical orgs like DWP helplines, NHS services, POLICE!!!!!! are not readily accessible to particular socio-economic groups.
7.  Consequently, non-geos for these orgs act as a buffer/retardant to the very people they're meant to help.
8. Re NHS - if people are put off phoning a GP / advice line because of the cost, do these numbers act as a retardant to good health?????  They certainly affect access to health services - and 'access to health services' may well be a tack worth pursuing - that is, without even touching on the issue of accessing the services when you're abroad.

I think the Social Exclusion Unit used to be in the remit of odpm, but has now I believe been shunted to the Cabinet Office.  But maybe DTI is also worth a try.  It's also worth bearing in mind that both of these might be dealing with social exclusion issues, but that they might not have learned joint up writing yet.

If I manage to get some time from somewhere, I will have a bash at a central government level.  Ideally, I would like a law passed which forces all organizations and businesses - especially the Govt - to provide geo numbers on demand.  No - change that - you'd have to phone the flaming non-geo first - the law should force them to display a geo alongside the non-geo.
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