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SAYNOTO0870.COM › Main Forum › Geographical Numbers Chat › Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National Rate

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Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National Rate (Read 51,015 times)

derrick

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Re: Phonebrain.org.uk - From ICSTIS
Reply #15 - Dec 7^th, 2006 at 11:31am

NGMsGhost wrote on Dec 7^th, 2006 at 11:10am:

derrick wrote on Dec 7^th, 2006 at 10:58am:

I have just done the same, also copied to all the committee members and the complaint e-mail on their "contact us" page.

It is scandalous that a telco regulator can get it so wrong, even Ofcon now admit they are not "local/national rates".

But did you also copy in your email to the CEO (Ed Richards) and board directors (exec and non exec all of whom have Ofcom email addreses) of Ofcom highlighting that this is a prime example of Ofcom's total failure to adequately deal with the 084/7 problem and the fact these calls are not local/national rate and that thus Ofcom is in dereliction of its duties under the EU Misleading Advertising Directive which have been delegated to it to enforce by the government in place of the usual OFT and Competition Commission who do this work for most other UK industries.

Ofcom email addreses are firstname.lastname@ofcom.org.uk

The Ofcom Board and its members can be found at www.ofcom.org.uk/about/csg/ofcom_board/biogs/

Have done that also, then received the reply in my post above

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NGMsGhost

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Re: Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National
Reply #16 - Dec 7^th, 2006 at 11:48am

derrick wrote on Dec 7^th, 2006 at 11:29am:

The wording ‘local rate’ and ‘national rate’ will be removed.

Regards,

Luis da Silva
Website Co-ordinator
020 7940 7467
ldasilva@icstis.org.uk

Yes Mr da Silva,

That's all very well and good but how did a supposedly responsible regulator like ICSTIS ever allow such misleading statements to be published in the first place and what breakdown occurred in the management chain of control that failed to prevent such misleading statements from appearing on the ICSTIS website? What were Mr Whiteing and Mr ICSTIS doing while all this was going on and how long has the misleading information been published on the ICSTIS website for? Wink

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bbb_uk

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Re: Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National
Reply #17 - Dec 7^th, 2006 at 12:25pm

Here is my quick email I sent to the Director, etc.

Quote:

Upon visiting your new website, www.PhoneBrain.org.uk, I noticed that you are giving out misleading information.

In your landline section of your new website, http://www.phonebrain.org.uk/landline/ , I noticed that you state that calls to 084x are known as 'Local rate' and calls to 087x are known as 'National rate'.

I feel obliged to inform you that with your technical expertise/knowledge of the telecom industry (obviously 09x more than anything), you should be fully aware that the ASA, Trading Standards and Ofcom themselves have agreed that describing 084x/087x numbers as either 'Local' or 'National' rate is misleading because they actually cost more than a local/national rate geographical call.

Although it shouldn't be needed, below are links to the ASA which confirm that describing such numbers as 'local' or 'national' is misleading and should be avoided. As you are aware, the ASA is funded by Ofcom and most policies adopted are with Ofcom permission. I'm sure a phonecall from yourselves to Ofcom will confirm that Ofcom themselves agree that such statements are misleading.

As a regulator of the telecom industry, I was very surprised to see that you still think 084x numbers are local rate and 087x numbers are national rate and worse still misleadingly describe them as such.

I also note in your 'landline' section that you state 080x calls are freephone. Whilst this is true from a landline, I feel you should point out that 080x calls are not free from mobiles. I note you briefly mention that call costs from networks may vary but under the circumstances and the fact that 080x are charged upto 35p/min from a mobile, I believe you should at the very least mention under the '080x calls are freephone' statement, mention that call charges WILL apply from mobile networks simply because most (if not all) mobile networks charge for freephone calls from mobiles.

Additionally, under your 'mobile' section ( http://www.phonebrain.org.uk/mobile/ ), you state that calls to 09x numbers cost between 10p/min to £1.50. Whilst this is true from landlines, it isn't true from mobiles. I therefore believe that because it is under the 'mobile' section and you state that calls will cost upto £1.50, that you are misleading visitors into thinking the maximum charge from a mobile to a 09x number is £1.50. I therefore believe that you should someway make it clear that costs can be more from mobiles or specifically mention the maximum charge that could be incurred from a mobile (whatever that maybe) because visitors (and children in particular) are not likely to be aware that costs are actually more from a mobile.

I look forward to your reply.

I today, received the following reply from the Director himself:
Quote:

We'll look at the points you make. I have most sympathy with your point that 09 calls from mobiles carry a premium - although the fact is every network (landline or mobile) now applies some additional network charging. The issue is the magnitude.

I must emphasise this is a site for 10-14 year olds - give or take. It is not a code, handbook or definitive presentation of a numbering regime which is fraught with confusion. For one group of people it is a way of getting helpful simple messages across. I think your description of ASA and their funding from Ofcom is incorrect but do not propose we go down that path.

With thanks

« Last Edit: Dec 7^th, 2006 at 12:29pm by bbb_uk »

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bbb_uk

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Re: Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National
Reply #18 - Dec 7^th, 2006 at 12:29pm

... and here is my reply back to him:

Quote:

Thank you for your email.

I totally agree it's very difficult to have any kind of pricing accuracy as every network does apply some additional charging. I've found that most of the time, landline charges vary only slightly whereas calls to mobiles can (and often do) vary a lot depending on number called.

My point about 084x/087x being described as local/national is misleading even from a landline (even more so from a mobile network) which is why I mentioned it. I believe in one of Ofcom's consultations they were thinking of calling those numbers "Business Rate Services", etc to stop the confusion over them being referred to as local/national rate which under the Consumer Protection Act 1987 (Part III) this is misleading as confirmed by Trading Standards.

As you state the issue is the magnitude of the additional charging and this is where mobile networks come into a league of their own with their additional charge. Again, I agree that you can't give any pricing information unique to mobile networks simply because they vary from mobile network to mobile network. I note in one point on the 'landline' section you mention, "BUT with all codes (even 080) network charges may apply and call costs can vary depending on network."

On the above point, I think the use of the word "codes" to describe a telephone call/number for your intended audience of this website maybe confusing. How about replacing "codes" with "calls" so it reads, "BUT with all calls (even 080) network charges may apply and call costs can vary depending on network." At the end of this you could possibly make it clear that costs from mobiles networks can vary a lot like adding a sentence like, "Calls to these numbers from mobile networks cost a lot more." This sentence is true so I can't see any legal trouble happening over it especially as you're trying to highlight to kids that NTS & PRS numbers vary a lot - especially from mobiles.

In fact, Ofcom in their quest for clearer consumer transparency on calls to these type of numbers have already changed regulation to force networks to be more upfront about the costs to these numbers however only a few networks have complied the rest haven't so far (probably because it's not in their interests to do so). Due to this Ofcom have launched an investigation into it.

As to my point on ASA funding, I thought that Ofcom funds (maybe to a limited degree like yourselves) the ASA otherwise I'm at a loss to explain how ASA funds itself. Whereas you are part-funded by Ofcom and the premium rate industry, as far as I was aware ASA doesn't charge for its services so therefore funding is obtained from somewhere and I thought it was Ofcom.

Anyhow thanks for your quick response and I do realise you are just trying to make it a little more clearer the actual costs of these calls, etc which I'm afraid in this current state of affairs, is a very difficult thing to do - at least accurately anyhow.

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NGMsGhost

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Re: Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National
Reply #19 - Dec 7^th, 2006 at 1:25pm

Quote:

I must emphasise this is a site for 10-14 year olds - give or take. It is not a code, handbook or definitive presentation of a numbering regime which is fraught with confusion. For one group of people it is a way of getting helpful simple messages across. I think your description of ASA and their funding from Ofcom is incorrect but do not propose we go down that path.

Surely the very fact that it is vulnerable teen and pre-teen children that are being miseducated about the cost of these 084/7 calls and that this false impression that they are local/national rate calls may then stay with them all their lives makes this misdescription all the more scandalous and deplorable.

Mr Kidd gives the impression they are only children so it doesn't really mater. Shocked

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derrick Supreme Member Offline Posts: 1,124	Re: Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National Reply #20 - Dec 7^th, 2006 at 1:31pm The wording has now been changed # Next expensive = 087 Cost = up to 10p per minute # Then = 0845 Cost = up to 4.5p per minute
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NGMsGhost Supreme Member Offline The Forum Ghost of NonGeographicalMan<b r /> Posts: 2,720 Surrey, United Kingdom Gender:	Re: Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National Reply #21 - Dec 7^th, 2006 at 2:13pm derrick wrote on Dec 7^th, 2006 at 1:31pm: # Then = 0845 Cost = up to 4.5p per minute Isn't it up to 5p per minute over at NTL?
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Keith

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Re: Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National
Reply #22 - Dec 7^th, 2006 at 3:03pm

Please find below the reply I rec'd (positive other than repeating that it is just for kids!), together with my follow up thank you email (haven't posted my original email)

Dear Mr xxxxx,

Thank you for your recent email providing feedback on our new phonebrain
website.

I must emphasise that this is a site for 10-14 year olds - give or take. It is not a
code, handbook or definitive presentation of a numbering regime which is fraught
with confusion. For one group of people it is a way of getting helpful simple
messages across which is the reason why we originally used the terms "local" and
"national" rate.

As you are aware the website was only launched this week, it will be an evolving
site and we are taking all feedback onboard. We have already updated the landline section to exclude the use of local and national rate wording and on receiving your email it has been recognised that we need also to update the jargon buster section. This will be updated shortly.

We appreciate the time you have taken to view and comment on the phonebrain
website.

Regards

Karen

Karen Kingdom

Evening Team Leader

020 7940 7455

kkingdom@icstis.org.uk

ICSTIS

Karen,

Thanks for making the changes so quickly - it is appreciated.

If you asked most people they would say 0845 is local and 0870 is national rate so
it is going to take a long time to get the message across so not putting this
message into children's minds is very important. I have lost count how many times I have been told that 0845 is a local number by people who honestly believe it.

So it was depressing to see it on your site of all sites!

Now of course we are getting lots of scams using the 0870 number as it is a
revenue generator. I have certainly had numerous calls where I am asked to phone back for my free holiday, or to pick up a message, or the call rings once and hangs up so you call back to see who it is. This is even though I am TPS registered, after all scammers don't care about that. And off course 0870 and 0845 numbers don't come under your scrutiny so it is safer for them than an 09 number (for which I have absolutely no objection).

FYI I first became involved in this campaign when the government used an 0870
number as the help line for the London Bomb victims. A disgrace that they have
promised never to repeat.

Thanks again for your prompt action and it is good to see you use a Geographic
number.

Keith.

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NGMsGhost

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Re: Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National
Reply #23 - Dec 7^th, 2006 at 3:39pm

The bottom line is that Ofcom has done no national newspaper advertising or publicity that 0845 and 0870 are not Local/National Rate. Whereas they took National Newspaper adverts when they deregulated BT prices saying it would make things better even though it led to a 20% price rise.

Ofcom are serial liars and incompetents It is all the fault of various current and former cynical senior Ofcom staff and New Labour cronies who are trying to featherbed their old telco chums at NTL and elsewhere. Angry

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Heinz

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Re: Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National
Reply #24 - Dec 7^th, 2006 at 3:40pm

Unfortunately, they haven't changed the error in the pricing of 090 calls and, worse still, their JargonBuster page shows:

Quote:

084 – this is the start of a local rate number. Local rate numbers cost up to 4.5p per minute from a land line (fixed line phone) but if you call from your mobile call costs vary and you may be charged more.

087 – this is the start of a national rate number. National rate numbers cost up to 10p per minute from a land line (fixed line phone) but if you call from your mobile call costs vary and you may be charged more.

09 – this is the start of a premium rate number. Premium rate is the most expensive rate with services costing between 10p and £1.50 a minute/message (plus any other network charges).

« Last Edit: Dec 7^th, 2006 at 3:40pm by Heinz »

After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015

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Keith Senior Member Offline Posts: 378 Surrey Gender:	Re: Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National Reply #25 - Dec 7^th, 2006 at 3:45pm Re Jargon Buster Page: If you see my previous post they say they are going to now change this also following my email.
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Heinz

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Re: Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National
Reply #26 - Dec 7^th, 2006 at 7:26pm

Keith wrote on Dec 7^th, 2006 at 3:45pm:

Re Jargon Buster Page: If you see my previous post they say they are going to now change this also following my email.

Thanks, I missed that bit.

UPDATE 09:05 8/12/06.

The Jargon Buster page has been updated and now reads:

Quote:

084 – numbers starting 084 cost up to 4.5p per minute from a land line (fixed line phone) but if you call from your mobile call costs vary and you may be charged more.
087 – numbers starting 087 cost up to 10p per minute from a land line (fixed line phone) but if you call from your mobile call costs vary and you may be charged more.
09 – this is the start of a premium rate number. Premium rate is the most expensive rate with services costing between 10p and £1.50 a minute/message (plus any other network charges).

They've still got the price of 084 numbers wrong because they've overlooked 5p/miinute 0844 numbers.

They have also failed to correct the misinformation about the cost of some 090 numbers (still overlooking the 5p/minute numbers they authorise).

Then again, it's probably the best we can hope for from Ofcon!

You have to realise their CE was only paid £414,463 in 2004/5 (heaven only knows what that's risen to now).

« Last Edit: Dec 8^th, 2006 at 9:29am by Heinz »

After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015

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idb

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Re: Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National
Reply #27 - Dec 9^th, 2006 at 5:59pm

bbb_uk wrote on Dec 6^th, 2006 at 4:56pm:

ICSTIS have launched another site called Phonebrain.org.uk.

This new site is a child's guide to premium rate services but also briefly mentions 08x numbers.

Not very surprisingly, even ICSTIS describes 084x/087x numbers as either 'local' or 'national' rate. See this

It is a sad and dam-ning indictment of the whole sordid UK telecommunication industry that a so-called regulator, presiding over a three billion dollar per year PRS 'industry' cannot even get its facts right relating to the cost of 084 and 087 numbers. Furthermore it is about to assume responsibility for regulation of one subset of these numbers, namely 0871. If the regulator is so utterly clueless then it should not have such a remit. It is useful to compare the idiotic and incompetent ICSTIS and its so-called consumer-protection measures with the US regulator, the FCC, which deals with telephone scams in a professional, serious and consumer-driven manner. The UK, it seems, has to suffer from blithering idiots at ICSTIS and Ofcom propping up an industry reliant upon scams and deception. What a joke.

Having just visited the UK for the first time in two years, it was staggering to see just how common these numbers are.

« Last Edit: Dec 9^th, 2006 at 6:41pm by idb »

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.

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idb

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Re: Now ICSTIS claim 084x/087x are Local/National
Reply #28 - Dec 9^th, 2006 at 6:49pm

The glowing tribute to ICSTIS, in a foreward to ICSTIS' 20 year anniversary publication, by the Rt Hon Margaret Hodge MP, shows just how high it is regarded by the Minister for Industry. For those of us who have suffered from telephone scams, aided by ICSTIS ineptitude, our comments would be somewhat different.

http://www.icstis.org.uk/pdfs_news/20anniversary.pdf

<<
Congratulations to ICSTIS on its 20th anniversary.

It is indeed an impressive achievement that
consumers and businesses now enjoy the benefits
that flow from a successful premium rate services
industry worth over £1.6 billion a year.

Telecommunications are crucial to the modern, global
economy. Premium rate services have moved from a niche
market to mainstream media. In ICSTIS’ lifetime we have seen
the birth of television text voting, the use of premium rate
for charitable donations and an explosion of personal digital
content, such as ringtones and music downloads.

This success is a credit to the pioneers of this new technology
and their marketeers but is also a huge credit to ICSTIS
which has ensured that every innovation and development has
been monitored and regulated to the highest possible standard.

Without ICSTIS, consumer protection would be at risk,
consumer confidence would be lower and the market would
not be the one we see before us today.

During ICSTIS’ 20 years the industry has evolved dramatic
ally. ICSTIS has risen to the challenge of ensuring a good
customer service to consumers using premium rate services
who have complaints or enquiries about services.

There have been problems, yes, but, in this anniversary year,
ICSTIS can report that nine out of every 10 calls to its Contact
Centre are answered within 30 seconds, as well as now providing
a comprehensive public-facing website. I am also very glad
to learn about the launch of a children’s website this autumn
to inform and protect young consumers.

As ICSTIS looks forward to the future in a converging
digital world, it can also look back with a great deal of pride on
what it has achieved.
>>

« Last Edit: Dec 9^th, 2006 at 6:51pm by idb »

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.

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Heinz

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ICSTIS, you are truly wonderful (not)
Reply #29 - Dec 9^th, 2006 at 8:20pm

Fairly typical (meaningless) New Labour rhetoric!

Asked a question? Smile (show teeth if you've got some) and answer the question with the words you rehearsed beforehand even if they've nothing to do with the question and, whatever you do, keep talking continuously so the questioner cannot interrupt to tell you you're not answering the question which was asked.

« Last Edit: Dec 9^th, 2006 at 8:26pm by Heinz »

After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015

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