Dave wrote on Jan 7^th, 2007 at 5:51pm:


And their excuse for delaying this change for two and a half years (following the abolition of BT Standard Rate on 1st July 2004 and making BT Option 1 Line Rental compulsory) has been that it was difficult to adjust all their billing computers before now to cope as they didn't have the words "0845 numbers" and "0870 numbers" in their ancient billing platform database.

Strangely they did have the words "Special Rate Services" in the billing database and used it for about a quarter a year or so back before withdrawing it on the grounds that it frightened the horses by making people feel that what they previously thought were Local Rate calls were in fact premium rate calls (or so I was told by the No 2 to John Strutt, Head of BT Pricing a few months ago).

Apparently BT customer call centres were absolutely inundated with calls in the period when they showed Special Rate Services on the bills.

Now if only OfCoN had forced all these scammers to at least print "Premium Rate" against these numbers even if they hadn't changed to 09.

By the way what do they print against 0844 and 0871 numbers on the BT bills?  I'm currently with the Post Office for line rental who were still describing them as Lo-Call the last time I got a bill.

Dave wrote on Jan 9^th, 2007 at 8:48pm:


The inconsistency of this web page and BT phone bills with the rest of BT's stated position on 084/7 numbers was the subject of several emails between me and BT directors copied to senior Ofcom personnel a few months back.

It seems that finally the BT board has bludgeoned its ruthless and conscienceless NTS number selling division into not continuing to sell these numbers based on blatant and bare faced lieing.  The head of BT pricing John Strutt has confirmed to me that the terms Lo-Call and National Rate are no longer in official use by BT.

It was of course this BT web page that Sky used to try to defend itself against my formal complaint about using the term "National Rate of 8p per minute" in their Sky Travel Shop programs on Sky Three that was adjudicated on by the ASA back in August.  Sky were told they should not go on using the term National Rate but as they had used the correct price sadly they did not get a formal adjudication against them that they had breached ASA rules.  However Sky no that they cannot go on continuing to use the term National Rate and they no longer do so in Sky Travel Shop programs.

Dave wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 12:01am:


I will email John Strutt and ask that this be changed to 0845 NTS and 0870 NTS. I will also cc Ian Livingston and Ben Verwaayen.

NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 12:14am:


They are, but not free, although some will ask you to redial without the leading 0

Whose fault is that? It seems the various companies involved never solved the dilemma of who pays for the call.

Maybe it would have been too idealistic to hope charges would have been related to the forward termination cost rather than have extra loading because mobiles have higher tariffs. 

But perhaps what did for its final withdrawal (by Orange just over a year ago, extended to a few weeks ago for those that  complained) was a proliferation of callthrough providers who almost certainly didn't pay anything at all and were agile in setting up new access numbers every time the old one was blocked.

Dave wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 12:30pm:
I believe OCP's do get some money when their customers call 080 numbers however I believe this is probably the same (I'm guessing) as the money they make from calls made from their network to geographicals.

There is no excuse for mobiles to charge so much more as most of the cost if bourne by the company you call when ringing the 0800.  I've always said they have significantly more outgoing expenses compared to that of landline providers (I assume) due to the cost of maintaining a wireless network and the cost incurred even when calling from one mobile network to a customer on the same mobile network.

I believe a fee of 5p thereabout would probably more accurately reflect the actual costs the mobile networks make.

Dave wrote on Jan 7^th, 2007 at 5:51pm:
I noticed this as well however 0871 comes under the general category of 'other'.  Therefore I assume 0844 calls do as well but cant confirm this.

andy9 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2007 at 7:10pm:

But surely (back in the day when you could call 1899/18185 080x numbers free from Orange and when you could call them at all) there are the following separate relationships:

1 The caller pays call provider (1899/18185) for the call.
2 Call provider pays the telco providing the 080x number.
3 The telco providing the 080x number pay Orange.

The above is an assumption I'm making, but what you're suggesting is that the amount that Orange received is directly related to the amount the call provider charges.

Keith wrote on Apr 17^th, 2008 at 12:43pm:


My last BT bill before I left them over a year ago showed "0845 rate" and "0870 rate".  This was after long correspondence with their head of pricing (John Strutt) and the CEO (Ben Verwaayen).  They cited programming difficulties (I very much doubt this was true) in their billing system as the reason why they had not changed earlier for 0845 and 0870 price description for  BT Option 1 to 3  customers (such as on 1st July 2005 when the prices became different)

Are you saying that BT is now showing "Calls charged at BT local rate". Surely not.  Other companies like PostOffice Homephone and YourCalls are shamelessly still doing this and just cite the excuse that it is what their main competitors do (official high level letter from PostOffice states this in black and white) and also that phone bills are not subject to control by the ASA.

Ofcom have just launched a new investigation in to non compliance by phone companies with the need to give equal prominence on websites to 084 and 087 prices as to 01/02 numbers.  I have written to the head of this investigation (a Mr Michael Love) to suggest that as phone bills are not covered by the ASA (not adverts) but are items statutorily required by Ofcom General Conditions to be produced for fixed line customers (either on paper or online) that Ofcom needs to widen its investigation to the matter of 0845 and 0870 calls in particular being misdescribed as Lo-Call/Local Call and National Rate. Mr Love was on leave last week and has now said he needs another week to think about it before he gets back to me. I suspect I have asked a big question here as Ofcom can control the content of phone bills (especially under their backstop powers under the Communications Act 2003).  Asking phone companies to accurately describe calls in non advertising material does not amount to excessive and disproprotionate regulation by Ofcom.  It is obvious Ofcom knows this is happening and yet has been ignoring it (presumably as usual either to side with their mates in the telcos or simply because they are useless at pursuing any consumer raised issue). I suggest you write to Mr Love with your experiences indicating you also believe he needs to add price misdescription of 0845 and 0870 calls on phone bills accessed via websites to Ofcom's "investigation.

His email is michael.love@ofcom.org.uk - he is the Case Leader.

See www.ofcom.org.uk/bulletins/comp_bull_index/comp_bull_ocases/open_all/cw_980/

Although the investigation is only about NTS (084 and 087) price indications being given equal prominence on webites but BT,  yourcalls and various other companies either only offer website based phone bill provision (yourcalls) or now charge extra if you insist on a paper bill (BT).  So to my mind a statement that 0845 is Lo-Call or Local Rate on a website based phone bill with the company is a breach of the requirement to accurately describe NTS call prices (although not of the requirement to give them equal prominence). Even if the matter cannot be tackled by this Ofcom investigation it could be tackled by an Ofcom investigation if they chose to do so.  Indeed it is more important because it is about the price indication being misleading rather than not having the same prominence or not being provided at all.

See www.ofcom.org.uk/bulletins/comp_bull_index/comp_bull_ocases/open_all/cw_980/ for details of the investigation.  If BT has really now gone back to calling the calls Local Rate on phone billsthen this must be challenged immediately.  It also goes against the statements previously made by BT's new CEO designate (Ian Livingston) published by The Scotsman newspaper condemning the abuses of consumers perpetrated using these phone numbers.

See http://business.scotsman.com/business/BT-calls-on-Ofcom-to.2642029.jp