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ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate (Read 40,633 times)
Dave
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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #15 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:36pm
 
derrick wrote on Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:35pm:
Ah but it is described as "Lo-call" they seem to think this is not the same as "local rate", and cannot grasp it is just a play,(con), on words.

But is Lo-call not a BT trademark?
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NGMsGhost
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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #16 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:37pm
 
derrick wrote on Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:35pm:
Ah but it is described as "Lo-call" they seem to think this is not the same as "local rate", and cannot grasp it is just a play,(con), on words.


A brand abolished by BT so they as a responsible ombudsman can surely no longer use it? Undecided Roll Eyes Shocked

The problem at Otelo is the IT manager responsible for the website - a total power crazed moron who knows his sad misunderstanding of the world is right!
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derrick
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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #17 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:38pm
 
Dave wrote on Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:36pm:
derrick wrote on Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:35pm:
Ah but it is described as "Lo-call" they seem to think this is not the same as "local rate", and cannot grasp it is just a play,(con), on words.

But is Lo-call not a BT trademark?


Not sure, but it is very close to "local" and I thought now BT had stopped udsing that term!
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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #18 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:42pm
 
derrick wrote on Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:38pm:
Not sure, but it is very close to "local" and I thought now BT had stopped udsing that term!

But if it is a BT trademark, BT therefore have a say on its use.

See the bottom of this page.

Report ICO's use of 'Lo-Call' to BT and ask if it's a BT trademark.
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« Last Edit: Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:43pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #19 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:45pm
 
The offending words have now been removed from ICO's website.
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derrick
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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #20 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:50pm
 
Dave wrote on Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:45pm:
The offending words have now been removed from ICO's website.



But it is still at the bottom of this page http://www.ico.gov.uk/complaints/unhappy_with_our_service.aspx
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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #21 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:55pm
 
Dave wrote on Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:45pm:
The offending words have now been removed from ICO's website.


But not the offending number. Angry Smiley

Ofcom did try for a while also displaying the 0845 number for their Contact Centre on their website along with the 020 number with a complicated message explaining that it would be cheaper to use the 0845 for the small number of people on the BT Light User Scheme (about a million lines in all but lines making almost no outgoing phone calls) who are not in the London local phone area but I see they have now abandoned that as being too complicated a message and only list their geographic 01 phone numbers as the correct number to call. Smiley
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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #22 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:56pm
 
derrick wrote on Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:50pm:
But it is still at the bottom of this page http://www.ico.gov.uk/complaints/unhappy_with_our_service.aspx


The bigger question though is where the 0845 has suddenly come from at this late stage in the day with the ICO up to now only ever having listed its 01 geographic phone number on its website.

I think its time to send Mr Thomas, Ms Fox and the other directors of the ICO an email with links to all the references showing why 0845 is not local rate but covert premium rate.

I also think a copy should be forwarded to Ed.Richards@ofcom.org.uk and all Board members at Ofcom plus all Ofcom Consumer Panel Members saying why this kind of error by someone like the ICO shows why Ofcom is failing in its duty to UK citizen consumers by not adopting new powers that allow it to impose summary fines on any company that still claims 0845/0870 are local rate/lo-call or national rate.  Also where is Ofcom's radio and tv campaign or newspaper adverts to educate the public on this issue and about its new forthcoming 03 area number code? Roll Eyes Undecided Cry
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« Last Edit: Jan 15th, 2007 at 4:00pm by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #23 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 4:12pm
 
NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 15th, 2007 at 3:56pm:
The bigger question though is where the 0845 has suddenly come from at this late stage in the day with the ICO up to now only ever having listed its 01 geographic phone number on its website.

Numbers beginning 0845 630 are allocated to Opal Telecom, a part of Carphone Warehouse Group. The change date is 07/2006, so most probably a new block of numbers.

See the Richmond Council thread here for more on Opal's marketing techniques including "0845 Appear local to everyone".
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« Last Edit: Jan 15th, 2007 at 4:13pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #24 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 4:26pm
 
Dave wrote on Jan 15th, 2007 at 4:12pm:
See the Richmond Council thread here for more on Opal's marketing techniques including "0845 Appear local to everyone".


All of which points to the gross dereliction of its duty by OfCoN in failing to publicise on a national scale that these numbers are not local rate.

Why did OfCoN take national newspaper adverts in the summer to say that it deregulating BT prices would lead to a better and cheaper deal for consumers (a total lie as it turns out) but has never done any publicity at all in the national press about the evils of 084/7 apart from Matt Peacock's one interview on BBC Radio 4 two years ago (telling us all companies in the public sector would have to publish a geographic number in due course) which his Ofcom colleagues seem to have been trying to backtrack on ever since.

And how to explain rationally to the public that 0870 will be charged as per 01/02 calls in Most (but possible not all) cases on 1st Feb 2008 while 0845 will still go on being charged as a premium rate outside bundled minutes by most mobile phone operators? Shocked Undecided Cry

It beggars belief that the zero brain cell salesmen at Opal telecom would have the audacity try to sell an 0845 number to a body like the ICO at this late stage when it is sure to cause them nothing but trouble.
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« Last Edit: Jan 15th, 2007 at 4:27pm by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #25 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 4:34pm
 
Just received the following e-mail:


Our Reference:

15 January 2007

Dear Sir

I am writing following your recent emails to the Information Commissioner’s Office in which you raise concerns about our use of the term ‘lo-call’ when advertising our Helpline services.  Your complaint has been passed to me as head of ICO customer services in line with our service complaint procedures. 


In responding to your complaint it may help if I briefly explain the rationale behind the way we have chosen to advertise our Helpline services before addressing the specifics of your complaint.


The ICO Helpline Service

For a number of years customers contacting our office by telephone have been asked to ring 01625 545745 to speak to our Helpline staff, or 01625 545700 to speak to our switchboard operator.  We are currently mid-way through a project to improve this service, streamlining the number entry points into our organisation, whilst seeking to provide our customers with as much choice as possible in what we recognise as an ever changing world of telecoms service provision. 


Recognising that for many customers the cheapest option, depending on their telecoms service provider, may well be to call our traditional 01625 number, we chose to retain this service at the heart of our Helpline strategy.  However, we also wanted to provide customers with the choice of calling what have traditionally been termed an 0845 or ‘lo-call’ number.  We have been absolutely clear from the outset that we did not wish to force our customers to incur unnecessary or prohibitive telephone charges when seeking our advice or assistance.  Given that we are unfortunately not in a position to offer a freephone service, it was felt that the choice of the two numbers, as described above, would provide our customers with the ability to choose the number which would see them incur the lowest charges.


The use of the ‘Lo-Call’ tag

When looking to explain to our less technically proficient customers the reason for offering two numbers, I chose to use the term ‘lo-call’ due to its direct association with the 0845 service.  It was never our intention to suggest that this number was necessarily cheaper than the ‘national rate’ and indeed, when we advise our customers to ring our Helpline when we write to hem, we go on to explain that we have a ‘national rate’ number for those who have access to ‘cheaper national rate calls’.  However, I acknowledge that in attempting to keep the description of our service as succinct as possible on our website, I may well have given the impression that our 0845 number was being offered as the cheapest service.  In an attempt to remedy this situation I am now in the process of adding some more detailed guidance to our website to avoid any future unfortunate misunderstandings. 


I would therefore like to conclude by stressing that it certainly isn’t our intention to mislead any of our customers, and if you felt in any way confused or misled by the services we were offering I can only apologise, and hope you are suitably reassured by this explanation.

If you have any further concerns, or wish me to clarify any of the information in this email, please do contact me by replying to this email, or quoting the reference number at the top of this email if you wish to contact us by telephone. 


Yours sincerely


Paul Arnold

Head of Customer Services

The Information Commissioner’s Office


Cc Susan Fox – Director of Communications and External Relations
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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #26 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 5:06pm
 
Perhaps you would care to point the sadly deluded Mr Arnold to the following:-

the view of the current CEO of BT Retail, Ian Livingston

http://business.scotsman.com/banking.cfm?id=764772005

The view of a county council trading standards department

Para 1.3 Page 1 of www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/oftel_0845/responses/leicester_cc.pdf

and

two guidances from the Advertising Standards Authority

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Hanging+on+the+telephone+on+and+on+and+...

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm

and

the Parliamentary Early Day motion deploring the use of 0870 telephone numbers by government departments

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872%09%09%09%09%09%09%09&...; amp;SESSION=875

and

Another guidance from the Committee of Advertising Practice of the Advertising Standards Authority

www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/CAP+rings+the+changes+for+telecoms+prov iders.htm

and Pages 5 and 6 of the below minutes from my own district council where we agreed policy to stop the future use of 0845 and 0870 numbers.

www.molevalley.gov.uk/media/pdf/1/s/Council_Minutes_190705.pdf

And the most recent ASA guidance saying that Inclusive call packages must not fail to disclose that 084/7 calls are excluded from them.

www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2006/Ringing+the+Changes.htm

I'm beginning to wonder if this Paul Arnold is the guy who used to work at Otelo (the 01 are definitely Regional Call Rate numbers because I say they are man) as I see that the ICO and Otelo have their offices in much the same part of the world.  Also it doesn't say much for Ms Fox and Mr Thomas as Director and CEO of the ICO that they allow this kind of misinformation to be foisted on the great British public without any form of approval at Board level. Shocked Angry Cry

However this case is going to prove very useful indeed in demonstrating to Ofcom and the EU Commission how their current sad inaction over educating the public on the cost of 084/7 numbers is not protecting the best interests of the UK citizen consumer who are supposed to be Ofcom's principal duty to protect.

If the Information Commissioner's office can be easily duped then surely everybody can. Roll Eyes
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« Last Edit: Jan 15th, 2007 at 5:12pm by NGMsGhost »  

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derrick
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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #27 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 5:19pm
 
I think I sent most of those in my original e-mail that where passed to him, I have also replied to him pointing back to that e-mail and giving further pointers to the wrongful use of 0845, and inviting him to look at this thread and also the site.
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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #28 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 5:49pm
 
derrick wrote on Jan 15th, 2007 at 5:19pm:
I think I sent most of those in my original e-mail that where passed to him, I have also replied to him pointing back to that e-mail and giving further pointers to the wrongful use of 0845, and inviting him to look at this thread and also the site.


You could do worse than to email your MP and all your 10 or so MEPs via www.writetothem.com alerting them to this kind of error by none other than a major UK regulator controlling the supply of information being the sad end consequence of the pathetic failure of the UK telecoms regulator Ofcom to ensure the correct implementation of the EU Misleading Advertising Directive and basic uk trading standards law requiring that people know the correct prices of goods and services before they buy them.

You might want to draw attention to the fact that while Ofcom is grudgingly finally moving 0870 to being normal priced calls in Feb 2008 it is not doing the same for what are still widely and wrongly misunderstood to be Lo-Call rate calls despite the best efforts of the ASA.  Perhaps you might suggest this is the inevitable consequences of Ofcom having a CEO for several years (Stephen Carter) who only understood the needs of business and business profitability rather than the need to protect the UK citizen consumer which part 3 (i) of the Communciations Act 2003 suggests are Ofcom's principal duty to protect.
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derrick
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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #29 - Jan 15th, 2007 at 5:53pm
 
I am afraid I have no confidence whatsoever in ANY MP to do anything relating to the right thing
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