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SAYNOTO0870.COM › Main Forum › Government and Public Sector › ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate

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ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate (Read 40,629 times)

NGMsGhost

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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #30 - Jan 15^th, 2007 at 6:09pm

derrick wrote on Jan 15^th, 2007 at 5:53pm:

I am afraid I have no confidence whatsoever in ANY MP to do anything relating to the right thing

There are a number of Parliamentarians on our side on the 0870 question.

Lord Paul Tyler, Vince Cable MP, Bob Spink MP, Peter Bottomley MP, John Randall MP, Andrew Rosindell MP and the new Conservative MP for the constituency next to mine of Guildford (Ann Milton) have all shown they are pretty active in pursing and understanding this cause. See the Parliamentary Update thread:-

www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1130983483/90#90

You may not like polticians for whatever personal reasons but ultimately MPs and the EU are the only people who have the power to call Ofcom to account for its disgracefully incompetent and negligent actions and/or inaction over this issue.

« Last Edit: Jan 15^th, 2007 at 6:09pm by NGMsGhost »

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Heinz

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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #31 - Jan 22^nd, 2007 at 8:18pm

Quote:

22nd January 2007

Case Reference Number ENQxxxxxxx

Dear

I am writing following your recent emails to the Information Commissioner’s Office in which you raise concerns about our use of the term ‘lo-call’ when advertising our Helpline services. Your complaint has been passed to me as manager of the Advice and Enquiry section of our Customer Service’s team in line with our service complaint procedures.

In responding to your complaint it may help if I briefly explain the rationale behind the way we have chosen to advertise our Helpline services before addressing the specifics of your complaint.

The ICO Helpline Service

For a number of years customers contacting our office by telephone have been asked to ring 01625 545745 to speak to our Helpline staff, or 01625 545700 to speak to our switchboard operator. We are currently mid-way through a project to improve this service, streamlining the number entry points into our organisation, whilst seeking to provide our customers with as much choice as possible in what we recognise as an ever changing world of telecoms service provision.

Recognising that for many customers the cheapest option, depending on their telecoms service provider, may well be to call our traditional 01625 number, we chose to retain this service at the heart of our Helpline strategy. However, we also wanted to provide customers with the choice of calling what have traditionally been termed a 0845 or ‘lo-call’ number. We have been absolutely clear from the outset that we did not wish to force our customers to incur unnecessary or prohibitive telephone charges when seeking our advice or assistance. Given that we are unfortunately not in a position to offer a free-phone service, it was felt that the choice of the two numbers, as described above, would provide our customers with the ability to choose the number which would see them incur the lowest charges.

The use of the ‘Lo-Call’ tag

When looking to explain to our less technically proficient customers the reason for offering two numbers, we chose to use the term ‘lo-call’ due to its direct association with the 0845 service. It was never our intention to suggest that this number was necessarily cheaper than the ‘national rate’ and indeed, when we write to our customers and advise them to ring our Helpline, we go on to explain that we have a ‘national rate’ number for those who have access to ‘cheaper national rate calls’. However, I acknowledge that in attempting to keep the description of our service as succinct as possible on our website, we may well have given the impression that our 0845 number was being offered as the cheapest service. In an attempt to remedy this situation we are now in the process of adding some more detailed guidance to the ‘complaints about our service’ section of our website to avoid any future unfortunate misunderstandings.

I would therefore like to conclude by stressing that it certainly isn’t our intention to mislead any of our customers, and if you felt in any way confused or misled by the services we were offering I can only apologise, and hope you are suitably reassured by this explanation.

If you have any further concerns, or wish me to clarify any of the information in this email, please do contact me by replying to this email, or quoting the reference number at the top of this email if you wish to contact us by telephone.

Yours sincerely

Robert Cole
Advice and Enquiries Manager
Customer Services Team

Almost word-for-word his boss's reply of 15/1/07 (http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1168526326/25#25)

Makes you wonder why they need two people to send the same reply - if they use a pro forma.

« Last Edit: Jan 22^nd, 2007 at 8:24pm by Heinz »

After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015

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NGMsGhost

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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #32 - Jan 23^rd, 2007 at 12:27am

Heinz wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2007 at 8:18pm:

You clearly need to push for an internal review so that you can reach deadlock and then take this matter to your MP to have it reviewed by the Parliamentary Ombudsman with an eye also to severe regulatory failure by Ofcom to fail to inform other public bodies adequately of the true status of these numbers.

Its a shame that the Parliamentary Ombudsman uses an 0845 number though. Wink

« Last Edit: Jan 23^rd, 2007 at 12:53am by NGMsGhost »

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Tanllan Supreme Member Offline Posts: 797 Gender:	Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate Reply #33 - Jan 23^rd, 2007 at 8:51am NGMsGhost wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2007 at 12:27am: Its a shame that... ( Sadly, NGM, that is the problem; none of these people is ashamed.
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NGMsGhost

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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #34 - Jan 24^th, 2007 at 1:09am

Tanllan wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2007 at 8:51am:

Sadly, NGM, that is the problem; none of these people is ashamed.

Or more like none of them have a brain and instead just blindly believe and absorb the massive confidence trick over the cost of UK NGN phone call pricing that the shysters and sharlatans at Ofcom, and their even more incompetent predecessors at OFTEL, have so cynically allowed to be foisted and continue to allow to be foisted upon the great British public.

I suspect that the cretin at the ICO generating these absurd stock letters and suddenly listing the 0845 number on their website is the same cretinous IT manager who previously worked for Otelo, who have their offices in the same part of the world.

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derrick

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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #35 - Jan 31^st, 2007 at 5:14pm

I have just received the following e-mail:-

31 January 2007

Dear Derrick

In response to your recent email I can confirm that I did view the links you initially provided and have also viewed the content of the ‘saynoto0870’ forum. I can confirm that all points have been noted and taken into account. I can confirm that all callers to our 0845 number are charged 3.3p per minute, none of which is passed on to the ICO. We raise no revenue what so ever from any of our telephone helpline services.

Our aim, as stated, is to offer choice to our customers, and we are satisfied that in offering an 0845 (not 0870) number in addition to our 01 number we are doing this very effectively.

There are no more references to the term ‘lo-call’ on our website in the hope this might avoid any further confusion.

Yours sincerely

Paul Arnold

Head of Customer Services

The Information Commissioner’s Office

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NGMsGhost

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Re: ICO give out new Lo-Call Rate
Reply #36 - Jan 31^st, 2007 at 6:02pm

derrick wrote on Jan 31^st, 2007 at 5:14pm:

I have just received the following e-mail:-

31 January 2007

Dear Derrick

In response to your recent email I can confirm that I did view the links you initially provided and have also viewed the content of the ‘saynoto0870’ forum. I can confirm that all points have been noted and taken into account. I can confirm that all callers to our 0845 number are charged 3.3p per minute, none of which is passed on to the ICO. We raise no revenue what so ever from any of our telephone helpline services.

Our aim, as stated, is to offer choice to our customers, and we are satisfied that in offering an 0845 (not 0870) number in addition to our 01 number we are doing this very effectively.

There are no more references to the term ‘lo-call’ on our website in the hope this might avoid any further confusion.

Paul Arnold

Head of Customer Services

The Information Commissioner’s Office

And what choice are they offering? The choice for the unsuspecting and uninformed to be ripped off by dialling the 0845 number from their mobile wrongly thinking it is lo-call or local rate only to find it is covert premium rate? Roll Eyes

Write back pointing out that Ofcom used to try and list the 0845 number with wording suggesting it might be cheaper for people on the BT Light User Scheme calling out of area than their geographic number but then dropped the 0845 because it was obviously far too complicated and difficult to understand for Jo Public. Ofcom now only list their geographic number for consumers to call. The ICO has always done the right thing on phone numbers up to now but suddenly is now doing the wrong thing. I have a horrid felling this Paul Arnold is the same numpty who worked down the road at Otelo and is responsible for their bizarre phone number listing at www.otelo.org.uk/content.php?pageID=99&PHPSESSID=81379f4a9680a836763ffe520c7f713... which says

Quote:

Our phone number is:

0845 050 1614

Our regional phone number is:

01925 430 049

But what is Regional phone rate. Abolished around 10 years ago by BT as I recall. Roll Eyes

Actually don't email To Paul Arnold only cc him.

Email the Information Commissioner himself - richard.thomas@ico.gsi.gov.uk and cc Chief Operating Officer simon.entwisle@ico.gsi.gov.uk and Communications Director susan.fox@ico.gsi.gov.uk

« Last Edit: Jan 31^st, 2007 at 6:04pm by NGMsGhost »

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agentq Newbie Offline Posts: 13 Sheffield Gender:	Well done the information commissioner Reply #37 - Sep 25^th, 2009 at 7:02pm if you look at the Information Commissioner's website https://www.ico.gov.uk/Global/contact_us.aspx it says Call us on 08456 30 60 60 or 01625 54 57 45. Our helpline is open from 9am to 5pm, Monday to Friday. Why can't more people do the same?
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SilentCallsVictim

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(NOT) Well done the information commissioner
Reply #38 - Sep 25^th, 2009 at 10:28pm

I am sorry to disagree, but this is quite wrong. It should read as follows:

Quote:

Call us on 01625 54 57 45. Our helpline is open from 9am to 5pm, Monday to Friday.

Special arrangement for callers from BT*, when inclusive calls are NOT in effect

At some times some callers may find it cheaper to use our alternative number - 08456 30 60 60.
The ICO benefits from a financial subsidy from such calls, however some telephone providers*
perversely charge less than for calls to our normal (un-subsidised) number.

*This arrangement is known to apply to callers on BT call plans, but outside the times when the
call plan is in effect. It may also apply to some tariffs offered by other landline and mobile providers,
often under particular circumstances.

Please check the tariff from your provider carefully before choosing which number to call.
Both numbers give equal access to the same facilities.

If organisations, especially public bodies, want to offer alternative numbers for particular callers, then the group of callers must be clearly identified, e.g. those using the RNID typetalk facility or callers from overseas. There are many ways in which one could offer special numbers suited to particular telephone tariffs - one on each mobile network for example!

It is not satisfactory to simply offer two alternatives. THis is especially true of 0845 vs. geographic. Many telephone users still believe (quite wrongly in most cases) that 0845 offers long distance calls at local rates. Some may think that the "fancy" 0845 number would lead to an IVR menu, whereas the other number is a direct line that could be engaged. It is totally unsatisfactory to simply give two numbers without any indication of which should be used.

SayNoTo0870 offers a most valuable facility for those who are at least a little cute about telephone charges. It is quite wrong for organisations to treat all those who may wish to contact them as through they possessed the detailed knowledge that is necessary to choose between different numbers.

In some ways it is even worse to offer an alternative (without explanation), than not to do so. Offering an alternative may be seen as a way of excusing responsibility for the impropriety of revenue sharing - the old "well you had a choice!" defence. I do not find this consumerist buck-passing, putting all the responsibility on the service user, to be acceptable.

@fairtelecoms (tweets)

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Well done the information commissioner
Reply #39 - Sep 25^th, 2009 at 10:54pm

On further consideration the suggested telephone number information from the ICO should have a further comment, as follows:

Quote:

For some callers** there is no difference in cost between the two numbers. If that applies
to you, and completely at your discretion, you may prefer to call the 0845 number. This
would help the ICO, as your telephone service provider will be contributing to our revenue
share at no additional cost to you. This money is only used to offset the cost of the ICO
telephone system, nobody actually profits.

** This is known to apply to subscribers to the BT Unlimited Anytime Call Plan. This provides daytime calls (of up to one hour)
to 0845 numbers at no additional cost. The cost of all inclusive calls, including the revenue share element of 0845 calls, is
covered by the package fee. It is hoped that other providers will move to a similar approach in future.

@fairtelecoms (tweets)

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irrelevant Senior Member Offline Posts: 409	Re: Well done the information commissioner Reply #40 - Sep 26^th, 2009 at 9:14am SilentCallsVictim wrote on Sep 25^th, 2009 at 10:54pm: nobody actually profits ...apart from the terminating telephone company... ~ Edited by Dave: Link on quote box updated after joining threads together
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NGMsGhost

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Re: Well done the information commissioner
Reply #41 - Sep 26^th, 2009 at 9:56am

irrelevant wrote on Sep 26^th, 2009 at 9:14am:

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Sep 25^th, 2009 at 10:54pm:

nobody actually profits

...apart from the terminating telephone company...

And often also the called party who may receive a discount on their outgoing calls, a free switchboard, free line rental or free phone equipment maintenance that is all contingent on a certain volume of calls per annum being received where the revenue then goes to their telco who then provides these discounted services to the organisation or individual actually receiving the calls................

I can also name you a great many other things not to praise about the ICO including their longstanding appalling slowness to investigate complaints and the fact that they insisted on printing a paper form from their website signing it and sending it back in the post for several years as a way of making it as difficult as possible for a member of the public to lodge a complaint with them (because they were overwhelmed with complaints).

Also if you look back to the start of this thread on Page 1 you will find that the ICO was being roundly condemned by myself and another forum member (Derrick) for its misleading and confusing phone call cost description policy on its website. The telecoms ombudsman (www.otelo.org.uk) was even worse at the time by describing their geographic phone number as a Regional call rate when BT must have abolished regional calling rate (not local but under 56km away) at least 15 years ago now. If the so called regulators can't get these things right then what hope for mere commercial companies to do so. Shocked

I wonder if our new forum member who has come here to praise the ICO specifically is in fact an employee? Wink

I see that over at www.otelo.org.uk/pages/13contactus.php they now use a very similar methodology to the ICO for describing phone call costs that will still leave the average Sun reader feeling highly confused about which phone number it is best for them to call:-

Quote:

Phone: 0330 440 1614 or 01925 430 049

These numbers may be cheaper to use if you use a mobile phone or phone provider other than BT, and will be “free” if you pay a monthly charge for calls to numbers starting 01 or 02

You can also call us on: 0845 050 1614

Text Phone: 0330 440 1600 or 0845 051 1513

We are pleased to take calls from those using RNID Typetalk Relay and TextDirect Services.

Online Enquiry Form

Please add as much detail as possible to our online Enquiry Form, this will help us deal with your enquiry more quickly.

Post: Otelo, PO box 730, Warrington, WA4 6WU

We recycle all written correspondence we receive and cannot return original documents, please help us reduce paper consumption in our office by considering if you can call us or use the online Enquiry Form.

Fax: 0330 440 1615 or 01925 430 059

We issue information in other languages and other formats. Please let us know if you have any specific needs.

The policy of having both 03 and 01/02 numbers listed in particular is both scattergunlike in nature and highly pointless and confusing as they both achieve the same thing for the caller. If an organisation really needs the so called additional call routing and call statistics features that they (and not their caller) pays extra for on an 03 number then why on earth are they still happy to list their 01 number that bypasses all this too? Huh

About the only possible justification for listing an 01/02 number where you also have an 03 number is as a number for international callers with the prefix +44 shown as not all overseas telecoms companies may yet be connecting calls to UK 03 numbers and they are also not bound by Ofcom's General Condition for Uk telecoms operators that requires them to charge calls to these numbers at the same rate as 01/02 numbers.

« Last Edit: Sep 26^th, 2009 at 10:18am by NGMsGhost »

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