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NTS Focus Group Minutes - Nov 7, 2006 (Read 9,014 times)
idb
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NTS Focus Group Minutes - Nov 7, 2006
Jan 13th, 2007 at 4:39am
 
The latest from Riverside asylum:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/telecoms/groups/nts_focus/notes/nts7nov06

NTS Focus Group - 7th November 2006 - 2.00 pm Ofcom


Meeting Notes & Actions

Agenda item (1) - Introductions

Attendance:
Andrew Wileman  Ntl:Telewest (Chair)

Marcus Rudkin  Band-X

Rob Day  BT

Kath Embleton  BT

Justin Hornby  Cable & Wireless

Laurent Pariat  Cable & Wireless

Andrew Monk  Carphone Warehouse

Toby Higho  Easynet

Will Goodall  Flextel

David Happy  Flextel

Tom Cairns  Gamma

Andy Martin  IV Response

Lesa Green  Kingston Communications

Nancy Saunders  Kingston Communications

Geoff Brighton  Ofcom

Clive Hillier  Ofcom

Mike Barford  Tiscali

Agenda Item (2): Review of minutes of previous meeting
Kath Embleton/Rob Day noted that the proposed timetable for discussion around future 0870 charging arrangements did not provide sufficient time for preparation of OCCNs/pricing letters. The timetable was therefore to be adjusted as follows:

Now – Dec 2006: Discussion/agreement of principles

Jan 2007 – mid March 2007: Negotiation/agreement of rates

Mid April 2007: Issue by BT of pricing letters/OCCNs (1 month required for OCCN preparation)

Summer 2007: Potential referral to Ofcom (if a dispute arises)

1st Feb 2008: Implementation of new interconnect rates (either as a result of agreement or via Ofcom ruling)

No additional comments/concerns were raised. It was therefore agreed that the minutes, once amended, could be published on the Ofcom website.

Agenda (3): Update/progress report on the current 'live' NTS related consultations/investigations: (Ofcom/All)
Adult Services consultation
Geoff Brighton said that the publication of the ‘Conditions regulating Sexual Entertainment Services’ consultation was imminent. (Post meeting note: Consultation was published on 9 th November). The consultation will contain proposals to ensure that all sexual entertainment services (SES) are offered on 09 premium rate telephone numbers, and that all SES are subject to premium rate regulation regardless of the price charged for the service. The closing date for consultation responses is 14 th December 2006.

NCCN 500 investigation/NTS call termination market review
Clive Hillier said that Ofcom was still in the process of drawing the NCCN 500 investigation to a conclusion. He added that the intention was to circulate the preliminary findings to the parties to the dispute in the first instance.

The call termination market review remains on hold, pending the outcome of the NCCN 500 investigation.

Andrew Wileman noted the potential linkage between the outcome of the call termination market review and discussions around future 0870 interconnect charges. Clive said there would not necessarily be a linkage as 0870 was due to be removed from the scope of the NTS call origination condition. Nancy Saunders said that the key question was that of which market 0870 would fall into. Other attendees believed that a linkage would exist, but the extent to which this would be the case was not clear.

ICSTIS progress re. Governance of 0871
Clive Hillier confirmed that the ICSTIS pre-consultation on the extension of its remit to cover 0871 services closed on 29 th September. A full consultation is due to be published in February 2007. Andy Martin noted that the current timetable had created a timing issue. CPs/SPs considering a migration from 0870 to 0871 ranges would not know what the exact conditions & constraints around the 0871 number range would be until later in 2007. Andy said that this did not leave time to plan or produce business plans. Will Goodall said he believed that the ICSTIS consultation process should be expedited as it presented a significant problem for businesses considering a migration from 0870 to 0871.

Will asked if the forthcoming ICSTIS regulation would apply universally to all price points within the 0871 range? Clive Hillier said that the ICSTIS code would apply to the entire 0871 range, however the question of whether different regulation would apply at different price points would be left to the discretion of ICSTIS when compiling the consultation.

Clive Hillier also informed attendees that the 11 th ICSTIS code was to be approved imminently.

General Condition 14 Enforcement Programme
Clive Hillier advised that Ofcom had opened an own-initiative enforcement programme into compliance with the amended General Condition 14 (NTS and PRS Codes of Practice). Responses had been received to the formal requests for information and Ofcom was in the process of considering these submissions.

BT POLO Dispute

Attendees were advised that Ofcom had received a referral for dispute from BT as a result of non-signature of recent OCCNs by a number of CPs. (These OCCNs covered the revision of BT’s retail call charges, following the relaxation of BT charge controls and changes to discount values). Clive Hillier said that Ofcom had opened an enquiry and was in the process of considering the scope of any potential dispute. He also said that input had been received from the parties involved.

...

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idb
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Re: NTS Focus Group Minutes - Nov 7, 2006
Reply #1 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 4:40am
 
...


Agenda (4): Update on arrangements for call termination payments under new 0870 regime
Andrew Wileman provided an overview of the workshop that had taken place on 1 st November. Attendees had continued to discuss the issues lists generated by industry and BT and identified a number of additional considerations.

While a number of points of clarification remain outstanding, the group did arrive at a potential high level framework under which interconnect charging could be transacted. The suggested framework had the broad support of those present at the workshop, however certain aspects remain contentious and it was noted that other members of the NTSFG might have alternative views. Specific rates/monetary values were not discussed. Andrew outlined the suggested framework and said that it had been drawn up for the purposes of stimulating discussion and as such there was no suggestion that such an arrangement would either prevail or be endorsed by NTSFG members – and members remained free to suggest/propose alternative approaches.

The proposal was based in part on the original suggestion by BT that the existing contractual arrangements should be perpetuated. This would mean that 0870 retains the NTS classification, hence removing the need for substantive contractual changes etc. The proposal also assumed that existing TCP provided routes would continue to be used.

0870 outpayments to TCPs would continue to be element based (including the preservation of incentivised DLE handover), with the actual rate adjusted to reflect the removal of the call origination condition. This would mean that outpayments would essentially be constructed using the basic BT conveyance/termination elements.

For transited calls, the current 'blanket Single Tandem' approach would be perpetuated, with the actual rates being based on the basic Single Tandem call termination component.

OCP to BT calls would similarly follow the current convention of a Single Tandem Charge.

Andrew said that consensus could not be reached on responsibility for payment of the transit charge, or on the question of whether an additional 'IN dip' charge should be factored in to the termination payments, as proposed by several CPs.

After the workshop, Colin Scott applied the suggested framework to actual rates and charging components. The resulting spreadsheet had been distributed to attendees in advance of the NTSFG meeting. Having considered the output from this exercise, many attendees expressed concern at the resulting level of outpayment. In particular, attendees were concerned at the negative outpayments applying to the longer distance bandings. Will Goodall said that Flextel would be forced to cease its services if the listed rates prevailed. Mike Barford noted that negative POLOs had existed for some time at certain longer distance bands. Marcus Rudkin said that the model would result in conflicting drivers (i.e. those CPs with legacy investment at the DLE level would benefit, while those without DLE level infrastructure would be penalised).

There was also some confusion around how the rates had been calculated. (Colin Scott was not able to attend the meeting).

There was broad concurrence that a similar framework could be employed for the 03 range, although it was recognised that there would need to be some subtle differences to take account of the apparently different contractual classification. Attendees agreed that there should not necessarily be any de facto linkage between what is put in place for 03 and the future arrangements for 0870. It was recognised that arrangements for 03 would seemingly need to be agreed with some urgency, but attendees were keen to ensure that no precedents for 0870 were set.

It was agreed that a further workshop was required to continue discussion around potential approaches.


New Action Nov06_01: Andrew Wileman to arrange a further 0870 charging workshop.

Kath Embleton said that BT was in the process of updating its original proposal to put to the NTS Focus Group. Kath added that it was hoped that this would be finalised within the next few weeks.

New Action Nov06_02: BT to issue an updated proposal on 0870 charging.

...

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Re: NTS Focus Group Minutes - Nov 7, 2006
Reply #2 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 4:41am
 
...

Andy Martin suggested that given the uncertainty around the implementation of the 03 range and the proposed timetable for the ICSTIS 0871 consultation, the legacy 0870 charging arrangements should be allowed to prevail for a further year. Andy asked if this would be possible. Geoff Brighton said that the final statement on 0870 had been published in April 2006 and CPs had therefore already had at least 6 months to consider their options. Andy said that the point was that CPs could not make decisions until they were in possession of all of the facts & options.

Agenda Item (5) – Implementation of the 03 Range (Ofcom/All)
Several attendees expressed concerns about the apparent delay to the publication of the 03 application guidelines and the Statement officially bringing 03 into being. Ofcom said that it was hoped that both documents would be published within the next few weeks. Lesa Green said that many networks were subject to data freezes over the Christmas season and hence would not be able to effect any implementation during that period.

Will Goodall reiterated the point that he believed the implementation of 03 had rendered the planned reforms to 0870 unnecessary. Clive Hillier said that the decision to implement 03 had taken into account the changes to 0870 and that the implementation of 03 aimed to address several policy issues that would not be addressed by the 0870 reforms alone. David Happy said that he wanted Ofcom to consider the legitimate expectation of CPs.

Agenda item (6) – Review of remaining outstanding actions
Action Aug06_09 : Porting differential issue to be added to the agenda of the first NTSFG meeting of 2007. Ongoing.

Action Aug06_10 : Andrew Wileman to confirm the position of the NTSFG in respect of SNEN discussions to the chair of the Telecom Advisory Group. Ongoing – Position to be confirmed. Attendees were informed that subsequent roll-out of the SNEN had been delayed.

Action Sep06_01: Objections to the proposal that the 0870 reforms should commence on 1st February 2008 to be communicated to the chair by 31 st October 2006. Discharged – Andrew Wileman confirmed that no objections had been raised. Attendees asked that this action point be clarified to reflect the fact that it referred to the timing consideration only, and did not relate to acceptance of general principles.

Action Sep06_10: Andrew Wileman to arrange a second 0870 charging workshop. Discharged – Workshop took place on 1 st November.

Action Sep06_10: Nic Green to confirm the Ofcom lead for the Consumer Protection Forum. Discharged – Geoff Brighton confirmed that the Ofcom lead was Warwick Izzard.

Agenda item (7) – Any Other Business
Lesa Green asked if the use of 0871 as a presentation number would be prohibited once it was covered by ICSTIS’ jurisdiction? Ofcom agreed to clarify.

New Action Nov06_03: Ofcom to confirm if the use of 0871 as a presentation number will be prohibited once covered by ICSTIS’ jurisdiction.

Date of Next Meeting:
Thursday 11 th January 2007– 2:00pm Ofcom – Riverside House, London

Summary of New and Outstanding Actions:
Aug06_09
Porting differential issue to be added to the agenda of the first NTSFG meeting of 2007

Aug06_10
Andrew Wileman to confirm the position of the NTSFG in respect of SNEN discussions to the chair of the Telecom Advisory Group

Nov06_01
Andrew Wileman to arrange a further 0870 charging workshop

Nov06_02
BT to issue an updated proposal on 0870 charging

Nov06_03
Ofcom to confirm if the use of 0871 as a presentation number will be prohibited once covered by ICSTIS’ jurisdiction

[end]
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NGMsGhost
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Re: NTS Focus Group Minutes - Nov 7, 2006
Reply #3 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 10:18am
 
idb wrote on Jan 13th, 2007 at 4:41am:
...Andy Martin suggested that given the uncertainty around the implementation of the 03 range and the proposed timetable for the ICSTIS 0871 consultation, the legacy 0870 charging arrangements should be allowed to prevail for a further year. Andy asked if this would be possible. Geoff Brighton said that the final statement on 0870 had been published in April 2006 and CPs had therefore already had at least 6 months to consider their options. Andy said that the point was that CPs could not make decisions until they were in possession of all of the facts & options.

Agenda Item (5) – Implementation of the 03 Range (Ofcom/All)
Several attendees expressed concerns about the apparent delay to the publication of the 03 application guidelines and the Statement officially bringing 03 into being. Ofcom said that it was hoped that both documents would be published within the next few weeks. Lesa Green said that many networks were subject to data freezes over the Christmas season and hence would not be able to effect any implementation during that period.

Will Goodall reiterated the point that he believed the implementation of 03 had rendered the planned reforms to 0870 unnecessary. Clive Hillier said that the decision to implement 03 had taken into account the changes to 0870 and that the implementation of 03 aimed to address several policy issues that would not be addressed by the 0870 reforms alone. David Happy said that he wanted Ofcom to consider the legitimate expectation of CPs.


These telecoms charlatans just don't give up do they in clinging on to any devious means they can find to try to hang on to their ill gotten gains.

And shouldn't it be any continuing revenue charging 084/7 numbers that were all forced to get a new number with a different prefix, while existing 084/7 numbers all started to be charged at 01/02 geographic call rates?  The whole system is designed to ensure that as few organisations as possible will adopt 03 numbers in place of 084/7.

And where was the Ofcom Consumer Panel rep at this meeting I wonder? Wink Roll Eyes
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« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2007 at 10:24am by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: NTS Focus Group Minutes - Nov 7, 2006
Reply #4 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 1:08pm
 
idb wrote on Jan 13th, 2007 at 4:41am:
Andy Martin suggested that given the uncertainty around the implementation of the 03 range and the proposed timetable for the ICSTIS 0871 consultation, the legacy 0870 charging arrangements should be allowed to prevail for a further year. Andy asked if this would be possible. Geoff Brighton said that the final statement on 0870 had been published in April 2006 and CPs had therefore already had at least 6 months to consider their options. Andy said that the point was that CPs could not make decisions until they were in possession of all of the facts & options...
I can't believe this Andy from IV Response asked this!  Money, money, money is all he and his company are thinking about.  I bet you he and his family try not to ring these numbers but it's ok for other consumers who have no idea of the costs involved to continue this scam for a year longer just so IV Response can continue to get even more money.

What about 0844, 0845, 0871 and 09x numbers?  His company still earns money from the use of these numbers.  I assume that the most common number that his customers have are 0870 numbers.

Ofcom already gave the 0870 an extension anyhow compared to what they proposed in the consultation and like Geoff said, they've already had 6months to consider their options.
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Re: NTS Focus Group Minutes - Nov 7, 2006
Reply #5 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 1:13pm
 
idb wrote on Jan 13th, 2007 at 4:41am:
Nov06_03
Ofcom to confirm if the use of 0871 as a presentation number will be prohibited once covered by ICSTIS’ jurisdiction
Could someone give me an idea what is meant by 'presentation' number?
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Re: NTS Focus Group Minutes - Nov 7, 2006
Reply #6 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 2:24pm
 
bbb_uk wrote on Jan 13th, 2007 at 1:13pm:
idb wrote on Jan 13th, 2007 at 4:41am:
Nov06_03
Ofcom to confirm if the use of 0871 as a presentation number will be prohibited once covered by ICSTIS’ jurisdiction
Could someone give me an idea what is meant by 'presentation' number?


As a caller display number on people's phones I would have thought so as to tempt them to ring back on it.
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Re: NTS Focus Group Minutes - Nov 7, 2006
Reply #7 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 6:37pm
 
The original CLI (Calling Line Identification) rules were written such that one could only display the actual number, e.g. 020 7356 5000, or another geographical number (subject to sundry premissions and rules), or a mobile. 0870, 0845 and 0800 were all, I believe (sorry, not in the office to check), permitted, but 09X and 070 were not - under any circumstances. The same should apply with 0871, but I fear for the worst.
Now why should that be?
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Re: NTS Focus Group Minutes - Nov 7, 2006
Reply #8 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 7:03pm
 
Tanllan wrote on Jan 13th, 2007 at 6:37pm:
Now why should that be?


Because the unprincipled telco loving so and sos who run ICSTIS and Ofcom will be the ones allowed to make the final decision. Wink
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