SAYNOTO0870.COM - Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Range

Keith

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #15 - Feb 13^th, 2007 at 4:47pm

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Well if we had my way I would have just banned all 084/7 numbers on 2 months notice about 8 years ago before they ever became a problem but I was trying to propose something that Ofcom with its, "we must not intervene or regulate in a manner that is disproprotionate to business profitability" would go for.

Agree.

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NGMsGhost

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #16 - Feb 13^th, 2007 at 4:53pm

Dave wrote on Feb 13^th, 2007 at 4:43pm:

Well you may be suited to Ofcom's Director of Telephone Numbering judging by your above response which has a numbered list with two number 1s! lol Grin

Well I'm quite good on the 100 page report front too so perhaps I should apply for one of their 200 k per annum director roles. Roll Eyes

Of course I suspect that they would find my relentless enthusiasm for fulfilling their stated primary duty to be an imerdiment to their own enthusiasm for recruiting me. Wink

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bbb_uk

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #17 - Feb 24^th, 2007 at 2:54pm

Just started to get around to reading this consultation. I'm only reading parts of it every now and then.

On page 12 of the pdf (PDF page 15), I noticed that a few mobile networks expressed concern over the fact that Ofcom was making sure that 03x was charged at geographical rates and included in any inclusive allowances.

These mobile networks tried to argue that Ofcom was in fact imposing a retail price control on OCPs that may not have had SMP (Significant Market Power)!

I think what they mean is that the mobile networks dont want to make these numbers the same price as geographical and included in inclusive minutes due to loss of revenue compared to current 08x pricing where they must make a lot of money without many of their customers realising what they're actually paying for calls to 08x

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NGMsGhost

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #18 - Feb 24^th, 2007 at 3:23pm

bbb_uk wrote on Feb 24^th, 2007 at 2:54pm:

These mobile networks tried to argue that Ofcom was in fact imposing a retail price control on OCPs that may not have had SMP (Significant Market Power)!

I think what they mean is that the mobile networks dont want to make these numbers the same price as geographical and included in inclusive minutes due to loss of revenue compared to current 08x pricing where they must make a lot of money without many of their customers realising what they're actually paying for calls to 08x

I think you have it in one bbb. The excuses given by the mobile phone industry for not charging all 03 calls at geographic rates because they don't have SMP are obviously just the usual lies designed to perpetuate the whole gigantic con.

In reality the only rule Ofcom is making is that calls to an 03 nunber from a mobile must be charged at that mobile phone provider's geographic rate. But Ofcom don't say what the geographic call rate should be or how many bundled minutes you have for geographic numbers, which can be as low or as high as your mobile company wants it to be. Therefore Ofcom is not distorting competition by requiring calls to all 03 numbers to be charged at geographic rates. Any additional call routing features on an 03 NGN being paid for by the call recipient.

But don't forget about Ofcom having allowed calls to 0870 to go on being charged extra after 1st Feb as long as the OCP makes an announcement. Now as there is no revenue share to the recipient on 0870 after 1st Feb 2008 who do you think that little rule is intended to benefit? Why the mobile phone industry which will now make far bigger profits on 0870 numbers than it ever did before if it continues to charge 0870 numbers at the same Premium Rate as for instance TMobile currently do on their Everyday tariff. Now they will go on getting the same call rate as before without part of the call cost being transferred to the TCP and their call centre client. Shocked

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Dave

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #19 - Feb 24^th, 2007 at 4:42pm

bbb_uk wrote on Feb 24^th, 2007 at 2:54pm:

On page 12 of the pdf (PDF page 15), I noticed that a few mobile networks expressed concern over the fact that Ofcom was making sure that 03x was charged at geographical rates and included in any inclusive allowances.

These mobile networks tried to argue that Ofcom was in fact imposing a retail price control on OCPs that may not have had SMP (Significant Market Power)!

But if they make an announcement then they can charge as much as they like. Problem solved (from their point of view). It's only the same as they do now with so-called freephone numbers. But that would mean the consumer being aware of the price they're paying...

This really opens up wider issues. Call tariffs are usually promoted on the rates it costs to geographical numbers (and with mobile tariffs, mobile numbers as well). The telephone industry has invented a get-out where they can keep secret and lie about cost of calling 08xx numbers.

A point that has been made elsewhere is that the cost of terminating 03 numbers will probably be more than that of geographical numbers. Therefore, under these conditions, it is to be expected that the price of a call to 01 and 02 numbers be pushed up.

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NGMsGhost

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #20 - Feb 24^th, 2007 at 5:21pm

Dave wrote on Feb 24^th, 2007 at 4:42pm:

A point that has been made elsewhere is that the cost of terminating 03 numbers will probably be more than that of geographical numbers. Therefore, under these conditions, it is to be expected that the price of a call to 01 and 02 numbers be pushed up.

Surely the 03 number owner pays that additional termination cost and not the party calling the 03 number? Undecided

Otherwise these calls will still be treated as non standard from outside the UK and barred for call routing from abroad with most carriers, just as 0845 numbers already are. Then Ofcom's whole creation of 03 numbers would have been largely a waste of time?

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Dave

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #21 - Feb 24^th, 2007 at 5:49pm

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 24^th, 2007 at 5:21pm:

Surely the 03 number owner pays that additional termination cost and not the party calling the 03 number? Undecided

Otherwise these calls will still be treated as non standard from outside the UK and barred for call routing from abroad with most carriers, just as 0845 numbers already are. Then Ofcom's whole creation of 03 numbers would have been largely a waste of time?

But how is the termination fee decided? Market forces or Ofcom setting down the price? Do different telcos (BT, Virgin etc) charge different termination fees for geographical calls?

I imagine that those telcos who provide NTS to businesses have an interest to get as much as possible so that they can make more profit/charge the business less. They don't have a direct relationship with the caller.

However, many geographical calls are originated and terminated by the same companies. It's in their interest to reduce prices to these numbers. Also bear in mind that a geographical number usually goes through to a landline where the subscriber pays line rental anyway.

bunking_off has just made an interesting post over on MSE here. It touches on what I said about NTS providers wanting higher termination fees:
Quote:

Obviously CPs with mainly originating traffic (e.g. BT, 1899 etc) will be pushing for the termination rate to be low, while the providers of 03/08 numbers will be pushing for it to be high.

Termination accounting for geographic calls currently has 3 basic levels - LES is where the call is delivered to the correct exchange, Single Tandem is where the call is delivered to its parent tandem, and Double Tandam is where the call is delivered to any old tandem switch (so the call goes through the tandem to which it's delivered, the tandem that parents the destination exchange, and the destination exchange...this level is also sub-divided by the distance the call's carried as well).

For normal geographic calls, CPs carry the call as far as they can to minimise how much they pay for delivery (called "far end handover"). For these 03 numbers however, there'll be no geographic significance so the only thing originating CPs can do is hand over to the terminating CP as quickly as they can (called "near end handover"). Some of the calls will co-incidentally hit the terminating CP at the correct location, others will go through two switching stages, but on average it may be more. But there can be only one rate for delivering the calls because the originator can have no idea where the end customer's located. So, the million dollar question (well in reality the market's worth tens of millions of pounds per year) is whether the termination rates for 03 will be similar to ST or DT. If the rates are similar to DT, there's scope to deliver the call without requiring a contribution from the 03 number holder. If it's more like ST, then chances are they'll have to pay.

Of course, the reality is very few of these numbers will ever be used to deliver calls directly. Most involve "intelligent network" call routing, which also costs (NB even the most basic 0870 number does this, to translate the 0870 to the geo delivery number). So, chances are 03 will involve the number holder paying for inbound calls. But until the rates are agreed, who knows?

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NGMsGhost

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #22 - Feb 24^th, 2007 at 6:11pm

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[url=http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=4428587#post4428587]So, chances are 03 will involve the number holder paying for inbound calls. But until the rates are agreed, who knows?

If Ofcom don't manage to organise it this way they will have an awful lot of explaining to do and an awful lot of egg on their face.

The problem is that Ofcom haven't tackled the basic underlying problem of the whole NTS call conveyance system where call conveyance costs are ludicrously overpriced and seem deliberately designed to keep NGN number selling businesses and call centres profitable and the telecoms consumer (who is supposed to be Ofcom's principal duty) in the poor house.

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« Last Edit: Feb 24^th, 2007 at 6:11pm by NGMsGhost »

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Dave

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #23 - Feb 24^th, 2007 at 9:09pm

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 24^th, 2007 at 6:11pm:

The problem is that Ofcom haven't tackled the basic underlying problem of the whole NTS call conveyance system where call conveyance costs are ludicrously overpriced ...

The telephone network as a whole operates differently to other industries and utilities. With gas and electricity the provider you are with buys your gas/electricity and puts it into the same network as all other companies. The customer still uses the same pipe/cable (and therefore the same gas/electric) as their neighbour who may be with another supplier. The supplier has the same amount of gas/electric put in as its customers use, thus they balance out. With telecoms, it's different. Every subscriber has their own line back to the exchange, there is no 'buzzbar' like with electricity.

For consumers, there is a need to link the retail prices between different types of numbers, regardless of how much they cost the originating telco. I think it's reasonable to assume that a call that involves one or more other networks will cost it more. Imagine two different products that may cost the retailer different amounts, but where the regulator says they must sell them to consumers for the same price.

Typically we regard "standard" rate as being the cost of a call to a landline (and mobiles when calling from a mobile). So it's right to expect that a call to a fixed location is charged at the same rate regardless of the type of number on any particular package. So this should include the forthcoming 03 NTS which will, generally speaking, terminate on landlines. The necessity to align charges between 01/02 and 03 must overule any 'market forces' that would otherwise define the price.

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NGMsGhost

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #24 - Feb 24^th, 2007 at 9:34pm

Dave wrote on Feb 24^th, 2007 at 9:09pm:

For consumers, there is a need to link the retail prices between different types of numbers, regardless of how much they cost the originating telco. I think it's reasonable to assume that a call that involves one or more other networks will cost it more. Imagine two different products that may cost the retailer different amounts, but where the regulator says they must sell them to consumers for the same price.

Typically we regard "standard" rate as being the cost of a call to a landline (and mobiles when calling from a mobile). So it's right to expect that a call to a fixed location is charged at the same rate regardless of the type of number on any particular package. So this should include the forthcoming 03 NTS which will, generally speaking, terminate on landlines. The necessity to align charges between 01/02 and 03 must overule any 'market forces' that would otherwise define the price.

This can all be catered for by making the companies/organisations who have the new 03 numbers pay any extra costs associated with terminating calls on them that they clearly benefit from due to the call logging stats and intelligent call routing facilities. What is not acceptable is to continue to make the UK citizen consumer pay these additional costs as has happened under 084/7. I think you are trying to introduce an extra complication here Dave when the complication arises only for the organisations who make a voluntary choice to have an 03 number and not for the citizen consumer who needs to call the new number code.

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« Last Edit: Feb 24^th, 2007 at 9:53pm by Dave »

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Dave

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #25 - Feb 24^th, 2007 at 10:53pm

NGMsGhost wrote on Feb 24^th, 2007 at 9:34pm:

This can all be catered for by making the companies/organisations who have the new 03 numbers pay any extra costs associated with terminating calls on them that they clearly benefit from due to the call logging stats and intelligent call routing facilities. What is not acceptable is to continue to make the UK citizen consumer pay these additional costs as has happened under 084/7. ...

bunking_off has made another interesting post. He talks about the fact that the termination rates that mobile providers charge have to be regulated as they obviously have little interest in keeping them down. Similarly, BT's termination rates for geographical numbers are regulated, but others are not. But in reality they charge (about) the same as BT does.

Ofcom must set terminating rates for them at the same price as that for geographical calls. Then it will be up to the telco providing the 03 numbers to charge accordingly for their services.

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bbb_uk

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #26 - Feb 25^th, 2007 at 7:38pm

Dave wrote on Feb 24^th, 2007 at 4:42pm:

But if they make an announcement then they can charge as much as they like. Problem solved (from their point of view). It's only the same as they do now with so-called freephone numbers. But that would mean the consumer being aware of the price they're paying...

Do all the networks state the cost of the calls to freephone numbers? I know o2 just state that calls are charged at "standard rate" with no mention of what their standard rate is. It could easily be interpreted as meaning geographical rates but this isn't so for PAYG customers at least (not sure about contract customers). I believe in fact calls to freephone are charged the same as most 08x numbers and last I checked it was 15p/min (only 0871 was charged more).

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bbb_uk

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #27 - Feb 25^th, 2007 at 7:58pm

Dave wrote on Feb 24^th, 2007 at 10:53pm:

bunking_off has made another interesting post. He talks about the fact that the termination rates that mobile providers charge have to be regulated as they obviously have little interest in keeping them down. Similarly, BT's termination rates for geographical numbers are regulated, but others are not. But in reality they charge (about) the same as BT does.

Ofcom must set terminating rates for them at the same price as that for geographical calls. Then it will be up to the telco providing the 03 numbers to charge accordingly for their services.

As we know Ofcom don't like introducing anything regulatory and get moaned at by CPs when they do. Therefore, I can see that at first they'll leave it to negotiation to set terminating rates and after about 1year if this isn't working then they may consider setting rates to give some CPs a fair chance of competing but like I mentioned this wont be welcome by the big CPs at least.

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Dave

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #28 - Feb 25^th, 2007 at 9:24pm

bbb_uk wrote on Feb 25^th, 2007 at 7:58pm:

As we know Ofcom don't like introducing anything regulatory and get moaned at by CPs when they do. Therefore, I can see that at first they'll leave it to negotiation to set terminating rates and after about 1year if this isn't working then they may consider setting rates to give some CPs a fair chance of competing but like I mentioned this wont be welcome by the big CPs at least.

But termination fees are generally highly regulated anyway, so there would apparently be no difference here whereby Ofcom would have to set a price for 03 calls. As bbb_uk says, it's got more to do with CPs dragging their feet, mainly because these will be 'mainstream' numbers where they are "standard" rates rather than obscure rates which are often hidden deep in pricing material.

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Dave Global Moderator Offline Posts: 9,902 Yorkshire Gender:	Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran Reply #29 - Feb 27^th, 2007 at 11:41pm How will Ofcom allocate numbers to communication providers if it hasn't decided how the charging arrangements will work?
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