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Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Range (Read 62,551 times)
bbb_uk
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #30 - Feb 28th, 2007 at 8:18pm
 
Dave wrote on Feb 27th, 2007 at 11:41pm:
How will Ofcom allocate numbers to communication providers if it hasn't decided how the charging arrangements will work?
Having read upto page 47 (page 50 on the actual pdf) of the consultation, numbers are to be allocated to CP on a first come, first served basis basically with only a certain amount of numbers at a time to save some CP getting huge numbers to give them an edge of any competition.  Ofcom are not doing anything with charging arrangement and leaving that to each CP, etc to work out that for themselves.  If a CP can't come to an arrangement, then they'll have to step in and investigate which normally takes 6months+.

One interesting thing I found is that it was mostly mobile networks that did the most moaning about free pre-call price announcements for 070 personal numbers (over 20ppm or 20ppc) and 03x being included in any inclusive minutes and charged the same as geographical calls.

And to be even more specific, it was Vodafone, I think that did the most moaning.

I would love to know the profits they make from calls to 08x and 070 because they're going out their way to try to avoid anything that is in the interests of us consumers - ie clearer price announcements or in the case of 03x numbers, the ability to know that regardless of provider (landline, payphone or mobile) that a call to 03x will be the same as a geographical.
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #31 - Mar 9th, 2007 at 9:15am
 
Dave states (http://www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1173396748):

Quote:
New 03 Numbers

Telephone numbers starting 03 will soon be available and they will be charged at the same rate as geographical calls, but they won't relate to a specific location. They will provide companies with the same benefits as 08xx numbers such as routing calls to different places depending on location and/or time and so on.

Changes to 0870

It has been proposed that on 1 February 2008 there will be significant changes with regards 0870 telephone numbers. Companies will not be able to earn revenue from them and they will be reduced in cost to the same rate as calling a normal geographical (01/02) number.

If that is correct, what is the point in introducing 03 numbers - they'll cost the same as 0870 numbers?!
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After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #32 - Mar 9th, 2007 at 9:44am
 
So am I right in understanding that 03X will be bundled in all land and mobile packages and 087X will not?
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #33 - Mar 9th, 2007 at 9:58am
 
Heinz wrote on Mar 9th, 2007 at 9:15am:
If that is correct, what is the point in introducing 03 numbers - they'll cost the same as 0870 numbers?!


The point of 03 numbers my Dear Watson is to provide a way for organisations that use 0845 numbers (eg Police, Inland Revenue and many charities and helplines) to find a replacement number that is only charged at geographic 01/02 rates as that won't be happening to 0845 numbers themselves for several more years (at least two) after 1st Feb 2008 if Ofcom has its way.

Now what should have happened is that 0845 and 0870 were changed to geographic rates on only two months notice in mid 2006 (notice how Ofcom with the avowedly pro money making scams favouring Stephen Carter out of the way finally did pluck up the courage to stop the no broadband ISP MAC code scam on just 2 months notice) and then after a couple of years all remaining 0845 and 0870 numbers would have had to migrate to the 03 range.  Meanwhile all new NGN  numbers charged at 01/02 rates would only be issued on 03 after mid 2006 in my ideal view of the world.

At the same time on just 2 months notice Ofcom should have changed 0871 and 0844 numbers to 01/02 rates and required any company that wanted to go on charging extra to get an 09 number at the same rate.  After 2 years these 0871 and 0844 numbers would have to moved to 09.

As a result of my above proposals all NGNs charged at geographic rates would have then been on 03, all 08 numbers would have been Freephone and all premium rate lines on 09.

But no Ofcom allows 0844 and 0871 to remain as a revenue charge Mecca, without even any disclosure of additional call costs on 0844 and only a token vastly weakened premium rate regime under ICSTIS on 0871. Meanwhile allowing 0870 to remain but now geographically priced (and yet with an opt out that mobile phone companies for instance can if they want still charge extra to call 0870 provide there is a call price announcement) ensures that no ordinary member of the public has a clue what is going on and so the scams can continue totally unbridled as before.  Fudge, Fudge, Fudge all the way so that most of the scammers profits are preserved.  That's typical Ofcom for you.  Not one grain of principle in its corporate body.

It is this same regulatory uselessness of not acting quickly to close down blatant scams that has led to the latest scandals about tv quiz lines on channels 1 to 5 not even paying out the prizes they promise.  No doubt if the tough FSA (FInancial Services Authority) was regulating this area then these companies would be fined £10 million or even £50 million (if Nationwide building society can be fined £1 million for a genuine security error with no actual mal intent) but with seedy and useless pro scammer ICSTIS at the helm perhaps £5,000 and a polite letter may well cover it.  By contrast you will recall how the poor Major on Who Wants To Be  A Millionaire was criminally convicted for simply trying to increase his odds of winning (without any certainty his scheme would work) even though Who Wants To Be A Millionaire can knock you out of its show, if it doesn't like the look of you, with an impossibly hard lower prize value question at any time it likes if it wants to.  But I don't suppose we will see the directors of any companies running 09 tv quiz show scams that don't even pay out the promised prizes sent to jail will we. Wink Roll Eyes Angry
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« Last Edit: Mar 9th, 2007 at 9:58am by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #34 - Mar 9th, 2007 at 10:07am
 
Tanllan wrote on Mar 9th, 2007 at 9:44am:
So am I right in understanding that 03X will be bundled in all land and mobile packages and 087X will not?


I hadn't picked up on that Tanllan but of course that may well be an unstated part of Ofcom's and their telco cronies (those who attend the NTS Focus Group meetings) devious and truly machiavellian scheme. Shocked Angry

All we currently know is that 03 numbers definitely must be included in fixed price calling plans but when you think about the fact that no such pronouncement had been made by Ofcom that this will happen on 0870 and also of the other pronouncement that higher rates to 0870 can still be charged if a preceding call price announcement is made then it all begins to look horribly likely.

The thing is what do we have to do to get the media to start covering this in the same aggressive way as with 08 prizeline scams.

In my view we have to talk about the £100 to £500 extra that every household in the land is paying on calls that the useless regulator still doesn't properly prevent being called local and national rate.  In other words a huge amount of money involved and a blatant scam of 09 tv quizline proportions.

Complaining its just 7p versus 3p per minute as Daniel the owner of the forum always does simply doesn't cut it as that only makes it sound like its a trivial problem worth only a few pence to each UK household.
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #35 - Mar 9th, 2007 at 7:33pm
 
Tanllan wrote on Mar 9th, 2007 at 9:44am:
So am I right in understanding that 03X will be bundled in all land and mobile packages and 087X will not?
It's my understanding that 03x will be bundled in all landline and mobile package and charged at that operators geographical rate for calls outside any inclusive minutes.  In other words, as far as us consumers are concerned, they will be another range of geographical numbers.  Obviously behind the scenes then things are different.

0870 will also be charged at geographical rate and included in any bundled minutes from landline or mobile UNLESS your telco chooses to charge extra for the calls in which case a free call announcement would need to be made.

As NGMGhost has mentioned, it's possible those less ethical mobile networks may choose this route however the last thing they, the mobile networks want, is to tell their customers the price of the call beforehand but never the less I can still see some mobile networks choosing this route.

So basically the only difference will be between 03x and 0870 is that some telco networks may want to charge higher for than geographical rate for calls to 0870 and if they choose this route they have to warn customers beforehand.

Funny thing is that going by the 03x consultation, some mobile networks (Voda specifically) want to charge extra for 03x calls claiming how it will put unfair cost increase on their behalf which Ofcom has rejected.

The Mobile networks even said they would put a free call announcement beforehand on calls to 03x so they could charge extra for the calls than their geographical rate which is really strange considering in the past, the networks stated (as did Ofcom) the cost of free call announcement would be too much for them and so was rejected!!!  Huh   Undecided
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #36 - Mar 10th, 2007 at 12:15pm
 
bbb_uk wrote on Mar 9th, 2007 at 7:33pm:
0870 will also be charged at geographical rate and included in any bundled minutes from landline or mobile UNLESS your telco chooses to charge extra for the calls in which case a free call announcement would need to be made.

As NGMGhost has mentioned, it's possible those less ethical mobile networks may choose this route however the last thing they, the mobile networks want, is to tell their customers the price of the call beforehand but never the less I can still see some mobile networks choosing this route.

But is this not what they do for freephones now anyway? But people don't tend to call freephone numbers as much as 0845/0870, so it would make it more apparent to consumers that these services cost extra for those on 0870 or if they migrated to 03 and the particular mobile provider charged above the price of a geographical call.

What's more, if a call to an 0870 number is higher than a geographical, an announcement will be made. But calling an 0845 or 0844/0871, it will not!!!
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #37 - Mar 10th, 2007 at 2:25pm
 
Dave wrote on Mar 10th, 2007 at 12:15pm:
But is this not what they do for freephones now anyway? But people don't tend to call freephone numbers as much as 0845/0870, so it would make it more apparent to consumers that these services cost extra for those on 0870 or if they migrated to 03 and the particular mobile provider charged above the price of a geographical call.
I agree which is why I dont believe any teleco (except maybe some mobile networks) will charge extra than geographical rate for calls to 0870 numbers.  The last thing the teleco's want to do is highlight to their customers that calls are charged extra.

No one can be certain what the OCPs plan on doing with regards to 0870 costs but according to this consultation, some mobile networks offered to introduce free call announcements for any calls made to 03x so that they could charge extra than geographical rate for the call.  Now I've assumed that because they offered to do this for 03x numbers then it's likely that they plan on doing this for 0870 numbers as well come Feb 2008 (possibly later if Ofcom decide to postpone it again).

Quote:
What's more, if a call to an 0870 number is higher than a geographical, an announcement will be made. But calling an 0845 or 0844/0871, it will not!!!
Totally mad isn't?

I'd like to re-iterate something I mentioned in my last post:
Quote:
The Mobile networks even said they would put a free call announcement beforehand on calls to 03x so they could charge extra for the calls than their geographical rate which is really strange considering in the past, the networks stated (as did Ofcom) the cost of free call announcement would be too much for them and so was rejected!!!  Huh   Undecided
So it seems despite what the OCPs and Ofcom said about how this type of thing would be really expensive to introduce and so wasn't considered, that in reality it can't be that expensive otherwise why would some OCPs volunteer to introduce it for calls to 03x just so they could charge more than the geographical rate?
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« Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2007 at 2:26pm by bbb_uk »  
 
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #38 - Mar 13th, 2007 at 1:17am
 
I am reading through the consultation document and I have made comments about various parts of it. Feel free to use them as a basis for your response.

The consultation only talks about 03 numbers and 070 numbers. It is concerned with amendment of General Condition 17 (GC17) so that the changes will be enforceable on all CPs. I assumed (perhaps I'm being naive) that come 1 February, 0870 would be on an equal footing to 03.

It is intended that these numbers will be charged at the OCP’s national rate, where it distinguishes between the two. I hope that this will not set a president for them to be described as national rate, thereby fueling the confusion that it is usually cheaper to call a local number. Then again, any promotional material stating that the number is local rate would therefore be misleading. Then again, it has not stopped them doing it now.  Roll Eyes

Suggestion that this is a Retail Price Control (RPC)
Part of paragraph 3.13 is:
Quote:
There was, by contrast, only one reference to the prohibition of revenue-sharing on 03 numbers, which was from Vodafone, in support of a dedicated non-revenue-sharing non-geographic range.

But, as bbb_uk says above, Vodafone has expressed objection to being told that it must charge 03 inline with 01/02 rates. Undecided

Or is it that it wants a non-revenue sharing range so that it has to pay as little to the terminating CP as possible whilst charging more than it does to 01/02? Thus it can make a nice profit on calls to these numbers.

Quote:
3.18 […] The Mobile Broadband Group, T-Mobile and Vodafone between them expressed concerns about linking the price of 03 calls to the price of 01 and 02 calls, about requiring 03 calls to be in bundles and about the 03 termination arrangements. These respondents also argued that Ofcom was proposing a retail price control on CPs that do not have Significant Market Power (‘SMP’) in call origination. Vodafone suggested that it may be more proportionate to allow prices to exceed geographic rates where an in-call announcement is given (but thought this option would need further analysis). Some respondents asked what specific legal powers Ofcom was using to introduce this regulation.


Pre-call Announcements
Quote:
3.25 Ofcom’s consumer research shows that consumers appreciate the giving of broad pricing messages about numbers, as provided for by the Plan. […] In addition, other research suggests that a large proportion of consumers (42 per cent) would find routine pre-call announcements annoying.

I am sceptical to the relevance of this. What does ‘routine’ mean? I would find an announcement on all calls annoying. But I would welcome announcements on those number ranges that have different charging rates, such as 084, 087 and 090.

Quote:
3.26 […] Ofcom’s discussions with representatives of both public and voluntary sector SPs emphasise that, to a very significant degree, SPs would not see a value in migrating to 03 if the distinction with 08 pricing were diluted by allowing for 03 pre-call announcements and price variations that removed certainty and led to price complexity and confusion.

Why question only public and voluntary SPs? What about private sector SPs? Did they not want to discuss these things?

Technical Definition of 03
Quote:
3.14 There were more comments on the technical definition of 03. One confidential respondent proposed that the service definition of UK-wide Numbers - 03 numbers - should be amended to remove the proposed requirement for geographic number translation and the proposed prohibition of use for mobile services. This was based on the respondent’s understanding that calls could be originated as well as terminated using 03 numbers. […] Ofcom has therefore decided to remove these additional parts of the service description for 03 calls from the Plan.

Presumably this will allow mobile providers to give subscribers an incoming non-geographical number charged at geographical rates. They will presumably charge for incoming calls to make up for the lower call rate. But this will be useful for businesses where they wish to provide a geographically-charged mobile contact number. For example, a sole trader such as a plumber who is often out and about and wishes to avoid forcing callers to pay mobile rates. I am unsure whether or not this would ever come about, but still, it will mean it will be possible.
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« Last Edit: Mar 13th, 2007 at 8:27pm by Dave »  
 
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #39 - Mar 13th, 2007 at 1:26am
 
The Importance of the link with Geographical Call Rates
Quote:
3.28 Many organisations (including not-for-profit bodies whose functions are often closely associated with equity issues) would therefore be deterred from migration by the prospect of different OCPs taking different approaches to whether their 03 prices should match 01 and 02 prices. Whilst SPs could, in theory, enable the public to call them on different types of numbers (eg 03 or 0800) according to the OCP involved, this is a significantly worse option and a formidable marketing challenge.

This has been the case with freephone numbers being chargeable (often above geographical rates) from mobiles. We may end up with 03 numbers being cheaper to call from mobiles than 0800s! I note that no provision has been made for migration (or for a ‘tandem’ approach where SPs would be contactable on both) from 0800 and 0808 to 0300 and 0308, respectively. Of course, having both available is just plain confusing to the general consumer.

Therefore rules must be brought in to ensure that 0800 is not charged above 03 rates from mobiles. This will be especially necessary if Ofcom forces 03 to be charged inline with 01/02 with no possibility of higher rates with a pre-call announcement.

At present, the Plan puts obligations on the TCPs on how they use their allocated numbers. Ofcom will look at ways of bringing in rules that apply to all OCPs. If many OCPs charge more their respective 01/02 rate for 03 numbers, then it will undermine the Plan. I think the same thing is true with freephone numbers from mobiles and I hope that something will be done about this.

In paragraph 3.56 Ofcom considers it necessary to make a formal obligation on all OCPs in respect of the designations of 03 (and 070) in the Plan. 3.58 goes on to say that there will be another consultation on extending this to other number ranges.

Waterbed Effect
Quote:
3.34 Separately, some stakeholders have argued that the ‘waterbed effect’ – through which limiting one set of prices may be compensated for by a change in other retail prices – is very strong. To the extent that this effect applies, it would suggest that OCPs would tend not to lose out financially from SPs migrating from 08 to 03 numbers. Also, the volume of migrating 08 traffic would be much lower than the volume of 01 and 02 traffic, and this limits the degree to which 01 and 02 prices may have to change to offset any first-order financial impact on OCPs. The first-order impact will also be limited in the early stages of 03 - and therefore easier to adjust for - because migration from 08 numbers will not all happen overnight. The absence of existing interconnection contracts for 03 also avoids initial inflexibility in setting 03 retail prices.

At the end of the day, telcos entice subscribers by promoting their geographical rates. The lack of enforcement of rules that require price disclosure of 084 and 087 NGNs only compounds the issue.

The nation’s telephone consumers are being over-charged for calls to companies anyway. And it’s all covert, so what some argue as the ‘waterbed effect’ is in fact the removal of the market distortion that exists at the moment.

SPs’ views on Pre-call Announcements
Quote:
3.38 The ability to provide a pre-call announcement has been argued to be a more proportionate way to meet Ofcom’s objectives. However, it is apparent to Ofcom from consumers’ and SPs’ feedback that a pre-announcement would not deliver the certainty that consumers want nor the confidence in, and SP migration to, the 03 range. This is particularly the case were a pre-call announcement to be generic in nature, as one OCP has suggested to Ofcom as a possibility, rather than giving the specific price for each 03 call.

But pre-call announcements will promote openness. I wonder whether those consumers who were questioned were, in general, under impression that 0845 and 0870 numbers were ‘good’ because many businesses used them and that charges were ‘reasonable’. With that in mind, such consumers would not have had time to consider the implications, i.e. that is not “just a few pence extra”. Thus, by introducing pricing announcements it may make people think (perceive) that prices are high and unreasonable because they inherently believe that they are fair now.

It’s almost like they believe that the introduction of pricing announcements is giving the green light to price rises. It’s the old chestnut that the 0845 ‘local rate’ lie has been told that many times that people cannot think in terms of this not being the case.

Legal Issues
Paragraphs 3.41 through to 3.47 discuss some potential legal issues which some CPs, including Vodafone and T-Mobile, raised. They suggest that Ofcom cannot include price designations in the National Telephone Numbering Plan. Ofcom rejects this and says:
Quote:
3.42 […] Where it appears to Ofcom that any of its duties conflict with each other in a particular case (both in relation to its duties to fulfil the Community obligations and Ofcom’s general duties), Ofcom is required to secure that the conflict is resolved in the manner it considers most appropriate in the circumstances. In the event there is a conflict between fulfilling the Community duties and Ofcom’s general duties, the Community duties prevail.
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #40 - Mar 13th, 2007 at 1:29am
 
03 Not-for-profit numbers
Quote:
3.61 […] Ofcom recently has learned that some large public bodies intend to apply for significant volumes of 03 numbers, with demand exceeding 100,000 numbers in at least two or three cases. …

3.63 The ‘0306’ sub-range will also be made available - on a first come, first served basis - at the earliest stage. This responds to a specific urgency issue with obtaining particular 03 numbers that relates to their use by a very large public body. …

So which public bodies have shown interest in 03 numbers? Huh

Hopefully, if public organisations adopt them, they will become more recognisable to consumers and private companies will follow suit.

It is also stated that 030 numbers will be not-for-profit services and 033 will be all other services. This is instead of 0300, for example, thereby allowing a ten-fold increase in the number of numbers available.

Call pre-announcements to 070 Numbers
Quote:
4.12 […] Some stakeholders have questioned the ability of all OCPs to provide a pre-call message that states the maximum cost that the customer might pay to call a personal number. In particular, this problem was said to be due to the fact that some CPs provide network services to others. Examples are BT providing services to Wholesale Line Rental (WLR) providers, and T-Mobile providing services to Mobile Virtual Network Operators (MVNOs). Any requirement to provide a message stating a maximum call cost would require network originators to know at all times the maximum call cost to make a 070 call from each of the reseller CPs using their network. This could be disproportionately complex to implement, as originators would have to keep track of reseller CPs’ retail prices to call 070 numbers. Additionally, the content of pre-call announcements would have to vary according to the maximum price charged by each CP.

[…]

4.16 Ofcom’s conclusion is that the pre-call announcement should at least tell callers the maximum call charge levied by the network originator to its own customers for a call. […] Partly in recognition of this simplification of the pre-call announcement message, Ofcom has decided […] to include a date of 1 September 2007 in the Plan as the point at which the price trigger designation will take effect. …

This will presumably be an issue with 03 numbers as well. It will also mean that those resellers that price calls above the threshold where their network operator prices below will not be able to fulfil their obligation of a pricing announcement. And vice versa, for customers of those resellers who price numbers below the threshold where their network operator prices them above will hear the announcement.

A reseller OCP has an obligation to see that these announcements are made. It is thus required to promote the retail price its network operator charges. Apart from being completely idiosyncratic, is this not misleading within Part III of the Consumer Protection Act 1987?
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #41 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 8:28am
 
I'm confused.

An OCP should always know how much they are charging for calls because OCPs are already under an obligation to ensure that on their website they have upto date pricing for all numbers with a few exceptions and none of them would apply in this case.

This would even apply to say Tesco Mobile who are an MVNO using o2's network.  Tesco mobile in this example are under an obligation to inform its customers of the prices to 070 (as well as the rest of the number ranges).

So if Tesco Mobile (again only an example) can display on their website the cost of calls to 070 then surely then can implement call announcement accordingly based on information on their website.

I realise that nearly all OCPs don't display the cost of the calls to a lot of the number ranges that they are obliged to which is another thing completely.

The bigger picture here is if some OCPs are unable to have accurate pre-call announcements because they apparently don't know the cost of the call then surely they are also breaking existing regulation concerning the requirement for them to publish the cost of their calls on their website and when required to do so upon request from customers?

Smiley
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #42 - Mar 15th, 2007 at 8:24pm
 
bbb_uk wrote on Mar 15th, 2007 at 8:28am:
The bigger picture here is if some OCPs are unable to have accurate pre-call announcements because they apparently don't know the cost of the call then surely they are also breaking existing regulation concerning the requirement for them to publish the cost of their calls on their website and when required to do so upon request from customers?

I have pointed this out in my response. Specifically that they may be misleading their customers under Part III of the Consumer Protection Act 1987.

And how will it look in bad customer service? There will be loads of people asking why, when they call via their reseller CP, they receive a message giving a price that may not be correct. It could mean people change CP because of it.

It also means that there is no incentive for prices to be driven down with reseller CPs as they can get away with charging higher prices because their customers are unaware/mislead.
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #43 - Mar 17th, 2007 at 8:26pm
 
I think that 0870 should be left as it is until 03 has been available for a while. See how the uptake of 03 goes.

Changing 0870 to geographical rates will leave it as an anomoly in the 08 range. OK, so the numbering system is riddled with anomolies anyway...  Roll Eyes

But if sufficient companies migrate to make an impact with consumers, then perhaps it will make it clearer. Also, I can't see companies migrating from 0870 to 03 if it were to be charged at geographical rates.

I am braced for an onslaught from other members......
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Re: Ofcom Info & Consultation on New 03 Number Ran
Reply #44 - Mar 18th, 2007 at 10:43am
 
Dave wrote on Mar 17th, 2007 at 8:26pm:
I am braced for an onslaught from other members......
... Well let me start then....

Seriously though, I can't see what difference it makes whether 0870 is left as it is longer or in February 2008 as planned.

If 0870 stayed as it is then there is less of an incentive for anyone to move to 03x.

I realise that 03x isn't going to be popular with companies/gov departments because they will probably have to contribute to incoming calls.
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