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Surgeries charge more for calling (Read 183,674 times)
Keith
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #60 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 1:18pm
 

My reply:


Rosemary,

Thank you for your reply - it is appreciated.

Are you going to change your web site? The statement is very misleading regarding
the call price and can be changed very easily. It is plain untrue to say they cost the
same as BT Local rate charges.

If this were a commercial advertisement the ASA would order this to be changed as
they have now done numerous times. Surely if a commercial organisation is not
allowed to state this then a public body definitely shouldn't. After all the public is
much more likely to trust a public body statement.

Regards
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mikeinnc
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #61 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 1:55pm
 
I also emailed Ms Stubbings to complain about this ridiculous situation.

Here is what I wrote (with some thanks to SilentCallsVictim!):

Dear Ms Stubbings

I wish to most strongly complain and disagree with the statement that is currently displayed on the PCT web site with regard to GP Surgery telephone systems, dated 11 September 2007 and found at http://www.glospct.nhs.uk/content/news/2007/september/news110907.html.

In this statement, the comment is made that "Calls to 0844 numbers from landlines cost the same as a BT standard local rate charge and are not premium rate lines as some have reported."

This is totally incorrect and it is an absolute deleriction of your duty as a public servant to allow it to be displayed. It is very well known and accepted that the 0844 numbering range is a 'revenue sharing premium rate' range. 0844 numbers are NEVER included in the total call packages of either landline or mobile calls that most subscribers have today, and must always be paid for separately. In addition, since there is no longer any such charge as a "BT standard local rate ", it is totally meaningless to make such a comparison. For the very small number of subscribers who still pay a per call rate (which is the same for a call to any geographic location with a 01 or 02 number, regardless of distance), a call to 0844 is of the order of 2p per minute more expensive. That is very clearly a ' premium' over 'normal' landline call rates. For mobile phones, the situation is even worse. Most operators charge between 35p and 40p per minute for a call to a 0844 number - a very considerable premium over 'normal' 01-02 call rates. The concept of revenue sharing makes the situation even worse. If the surgery is busy, and the caller is forced to wait and listen to some 'soothing' music, I'm sure they are suitably impressed to know they are paying between 5p and 40p per minute for the privilege. Indeed, there is now every suggestion that the surgery will be encouraged to put the caller on hold, since they are then getting a (hidden) revenue stream, reputed to be of the order of 2p per minute, from the call.

There is absolutely no reason why this situation should continue. If GPs have exercised a "choice" to fund new telephone systems by collecting money from patients, rather than paying for them in the proper manner, then by your tacit support of this decision, you are approving, or even encouraging, a breach of the principle that NHS services are "free at the point of need". It is the telephone system that provides the improved service, not the telephone number used to access it - and exactly the same facilities could be provided with a normal landline number (01 or 02) or one of the new 03 numbers that have recently been introduced by Ofcom. (They are charged in exactly the same way as 01 and 02, and must be included in call packages which means that for most subscribers, the incremental cost of a call to their surgery is zero.)

I cannot understand why a public body such as the PCT would see the need to deliberately publish information that is known to be false and meaningless. It appears that it is a foolish and ineffective attempt to conceal the true and widely understood state of affairs. The time when ill-informed public servants can get away with publishing nonsense such as that seen in your statement has long passed. This is a deliberate attempt at obfuscation, and I demand that you both retract the false information and publish a clear and unambiguous apology.

I look forward to an early and positive reply from you.

Yours sincerely


I got the same reply as Keith:

Quote:
Dear xxxx,

Thank you for your e-mail dated 4 October 2007.

The PCT is aware of the concerns regarding the use of 0844 numbers and 
continues to keep this matter under review.


What a pathetic bunch of weasel words!   Angry
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sherbert
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #62 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 2:18pm
 
mikeinnc wrote on Oct 5th, 2007 at 1:55pm:
I also emailed Ms Stubbings to complain about this ridiculous situation.

Here is what I wrote (with some thanks to SilentCallsVictim!):

Dear Ms Stubbings

I wish to most strongly complain and disagree with the statement that is currently displayed on the PCT web site with regard to GP Surgery telephone systems, dated 11 September 2007 and found at http://www.glospct.nhs.uk/content/news/2007/september/news110907.html.

In this statement, the comment is made that "Calls to 0844 numbers from landlines cost the same as a BT standard local rate charge and are not premium rate lines as some have reported."

This is totally incorrect and it is an absolute deleriction of your duty as a public servant to allow it to be displayed. It is very well known and accepted that the 0844 numbering range is a 'revenue sharing premium rate' range. 0844 numbers are NEVER included in the total call packages of either landline or mobile calls that most subscribers have today, and must always be paid for separately. In addition, since there is no longer any such charge as a "BT standard local rate ", it is totally meaningless to make such a comparison. For the very small number of subscribers who still pay a per call rate (which is the same for a call to any geographic location with a 01 or 02 number, regardless of distance), a call to 0844 is of the order of 2p per minute more expensive. That is very clearly a ' premium' over 'normal' landline call rates. For mobile phones, the situation is even worse. Most operators charge between 35p and 40p per minute for a call to a 0844 number - a very considerable premium over 'normal' 01-02 call rates. The concept of revenue sharing makes the situation even worse. If the surgery is busy, and the caller is forced to wait and listen to some 'soothing' music, I'm sure they are suitably impressed to know they are paying between 5p and 40p per minute for the privilege. Indeed, there is now every suggestion that the surgery will be encouraged to put the caller on hold, since they are then getting a (hidden) revenue stream, reputed to be of the order of 2p per minute, from the call.

There is absolutely no reason why this situation should continue. If GPs have exercised a "choice" to fund new telephone systems by collecting money from patients, rather than paying for them in the proper manner, then by your tacit support of this decision, you are approving, or even encouraging, a breach of the principle that NHS services are "free at the point of need". It is the telephone system that provides the improved service, not the telephone number used to access it - and exactly the same facilities could be provided with a normal landline number (01 or 02) or one of the new 03 numbers that have recently been introduced by Ofcom. (They are charged in exactly the same way as 01 and 02, and must be included in call packages which means that for most subscribers, the incremental cost of a call to their surgery is zero.)

I cannot understand why a public body such as the PCT would see the need to deliberately publish information that is known to be false and meaningless. It appears that it is a foolish and ineffective attempt to conceal the true and widely understood state of affairs. The time when ill-informed public servants can get away with publishing nonsense such as that seen in your statement has long passed. This is a deliberate attempt at obfuscation, and I demand that you both retract the false information and publish a clear and unambiguous apology.

I look forward to an early and positive reply from you.

Yours sincerely


I got the same reply as Keith:

Quote:
Dear xxxx,

Thank you for your e-mail dated 4 October 2007.

The PCT is aware of the concerns regarding the use of 0844 numbers and 
continues to keep this matter under review.


What a pathetic bunch of weasel words!   Angry


I wonder if emails to every surgery would produce the same pathetic reply. Angry
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Dave
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #63 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 3:15pm
 
I have received the same email as others from Ms Fewings, with the addition of "I can confirm that the statement is no longer on our website" on the end.
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mikeinnc
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #64 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 3:23pm
 
Quote:
I have received the same email as others from Ms Fewings, with the addition of "I can confirm that the statement is no longer on our website" on the end.


Well, it's about 4:20pm in the UK on Friday 5 Oct and the statement is still there........

How do these people lie straight in bed at night? Total lies!!   Angry
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« Last Edit: Oct 5th, 2007 at 3:24pm by mikeinnc »  
 
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lompos
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #65 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 4:01pm
 
Quote:
Interesting to find that the contact number for the Chief Executive Gloucestershire PCT is 0845 6583800-well what did you expect!


Just in case anyone wanted to contact them, Chief Executive included, on a geographic number ......

GLOUCESTERSHIRE PRIMARY CARE TRUST
CENTRAL WAY
CHELTENHAM TRADE PARK
CHELTENHAM
GL518LX

01242 548 800
01242 548 801 fax
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #66 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 4:03pm
 
sherbert wrote on Oct 5th, 2007 at 2:18pm:
I wonder if emails to every surgery would produce the same pathetic reply. Angry

It is not for me to tell anyone what to do, but I would strongly urge moderation.

Our just cause may not be helped if we simply cause annoyance to those who we are hoping to persude into agreement.


We have the right to approach our own GPs, PCTs and MPs with any view that we hold, as they are accountable to us. I believe that it is only those who enter into public debate on issues that extend beyond their specific remit who may reasonably expect to receive responses from “outside” members of the public who are engaged in the same debate.

My polite briefing to Gloucestershire PCT was partly used, but generally and pointedly disregarded, in compiling this disgraceful news release. This purported to state general facts, rather than acknowledge a political decision taken by the PCT. It was this approach and the scale of the nonsense that led me to take the exceptional step of promoting the torrent of communication that seems to be occurring.

It is for the people of Gloucestershire, who are the victims of this policy decision against the NHS being “free at the point of use”, to actually engage in this particular battle. I believe that they have potentially adequate champions in their MPs and media, who have already become involved. When making “cold contact” with PCTs I not only seek to inform before offering criticism, but always copy in local media and MPs to encourage proper channels of accountability to be used.


Gloucestershire PCT owes nothing to those of us writing from outside the county, other than a polite acknowledgement and such further response as it chooses to offer for its own reasons.


These are my suggestions in response to points made, and in explanation of my own posting. I cannot expect everyone to share my views, but I do not wish to engage in an extended discussion about tactics on this board.

David
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lompos
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #67 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 4:18pm
 
Quote:
Our just cause may not be helped if we simply cause annoyance to those who we are hoping to persude into agreement.


I would not shrink from causing annoyance to people who clearly lost their way and don't understand the basic precept of the NHS, especially since they are part of the NHS.  If people don't complain these organisations just broadcast feeble and misleading statements like "we only had x complaints" implying that everyone else is happy about the state of affairs.

As you say, it is a question of tactics but in this instance I would consider swamping them with complaints (and not only from people in Gloucestershire) to be more effective than restraint.



 
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Heinz
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #68 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 4:40pm
 
mikeinnc wrote on Oct 5th, 2007 at 3:23pm:
Quote:
I have received the same email as others from Ms Fewings, with the addition of "I can confirm that the statement is no longer on our website" on the end.
Well, it's about 4:20pm in the UK on Friday 5 Oct and the statement is still there........

How do these people lie straight in bed at night? Total lies!!   Angry

Now let's be fair here.  That statement was probably made by someone who hasn't the faintest idea how to access a website and is only repeating the lies she's been told (it's still there BTW).

Quote:
Calls to 0844 numbers from landlines cost the same as a BT standard local rate charge and are not premium rate lines as some have reported.

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« Last Edit: Oct 5th, 2007 at 4:49pm by Heinz »  

After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015
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bbb_uk
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #69 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 5:30pm
 
Dave wrote on Oct 5th, 2007 at 3:15pm:
I have received the same email as others from Ms Fewings, with the addition of "I can confirm that the statement is no longer on our website" on the end.
I also received the same email but without the "I can confirm that the statement is no longer on our website" statement.
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Dave
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #70 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 5:44pm
 
bbb_uk wrote on Oct 5th, 2007 at 5:30pm:
I also received the same email but without the "I can confirm that the statement is no longer on our website" statement.

This bit was included because I said in my email that "The erroneous information on Gloucestershire PCT's website requires immediate removal".
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Keith
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #71 - Oct 8th, 2007 at 8:32am
 

Email rec'd this morning:


Thank you for your e-mail below.

I can confirm the statement has now been removed from the PCT's website.

Yours sincerely


Rosemary Fewings


I have emailed basck (after checking) to let her know that this is untrue as it is still there.
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sherbert
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #72 - Oct 8th, 2007 at 8:40am
 
Has anyone written to the Holbrook surgery in Horsham about the lies? If not I will. I believe the practice manager is Mrs Heatley Angry
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« Last Edit: Oct 8th, 2007 at 8:41am by sherbert »  
 
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joe65
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #73 - Oct 8th, 2007 at 10:05pm
 
Careful Sherbert,   If it's your surgery do you want to risk being ex-communicated.   Iniquitous an' all as this is, good Doctors can be hard to find ?  Safer coming from someone with nothing to lose here.
Rgds.,
Joe
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There are those who count,&&An' those who cann't,&&An' those who count  on the both of 'em.
 
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sherbert
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Re: Surgeries charge more for calling
Reply #74 - Oct 9th, 2007 at 7:49am
 
Mmmm, that's true Joe. Will have to find someone to do my dirty work! Thanks. Lips Sealed
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« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2007 at 4:46pm by DaveM »  
 
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