SAYNOTO0870.COM - PETITION to No. 10 - Prevent doctors using 0844

poppasmurf

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Re: PETITION to No. 10 - Prevent doctors using 084
Reply #210 - Dec 21^st, 2009 at 12:19pm

I've had an email today from the Downing Street website, which appears to confirm that GP's will be banned from using 084 number from early in the New Year, and other NHS organisations later in 2010.

The text of the message is:
The Department of Health proposes to ban the use of premium rate numbers by NHS organisations. It has recently consulted on the use of 084 numbers in the NHS. The Department’s response to the consultation was published on 14 September, and is available on its website at: www.dh.gov.uk by typing ‘084 consultation response’ into the search bar.

The Department received approximately 3,000 responses to the consultation exercise; 2,000 from members of the public, a further 1,000 from the NHS, and a small number of responses from industry and other stakeholder organisations.

The consultation demonstrated that there is overwhelming support for the banning of numbers which cost the patient more to call than if they had called a normal geographical number (for example, numbers beginning 01 or 02). As a result of the consultation, the Department intends to amend legislation to stop the use of any telephone numbers which charge patients more to contact the NHS than the equivalent call to a geographical number. This will be enforced through amendments to the GP contract regulations, and the issuing of Directions to NHS Trusts and Primary Care Trusts (PCTs).

The ban will be enforced as soon as the necessary legislative changes can be made. This will be early next year for GP Practices, but as soon as practically possible for NHS Trusts and PCTs. The Department’s ongoing position on this issue has been that patients should not be expected to pay more than the equivalent cost of calling a geographical number, and, in the meantime, Ministers expect NHS organisations to continue to take this into account.

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loddon

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Re: PETITION to No. 10 - Prevent doctors using 084
Reply #211 - Dec 21^st, 2009 at 12:19pm

Yes, the Government Response has at long last appeared here :---

http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page21836

The text is :---

The Department of Health proposes to ban the use of premium rate numbers by NHS organisations. It has recently consulted on the use of 084 numbers in the NHS. The Department’s response to the consultation was published on 14 September, and is available on its website at: www.dh.gov.uk by typing ‘084 consultation response’ into the search bar.

The Department received approximately 3,000 responses to the consultation exercise; 2,000 from members of the public, a further 1,000 from the NHS, and a small number of responses from industry and other stakeholder organisations.

The consultation demonstrated that there is overwhelming support for the banning of numbers which cost the patient more to call than if they had called a normal geographical number (for example, numbers beginning 01 or 02). As a result of the consultation, the Department intends to amend legislation to stop the use of any telephone numbers which charge patients more to contact the NHS than the equivalent call to a geographical number. This will be enforced through amendments to the GP contract regulations, and the issuing of Directions to NHS Trusts and Primary Care Trusts (PCTs).

The ban will be enforced as soon as the necessary legislative changes can be made. This will be early next year for GP Practices, but as soon as practically possible for NHS Trusts and PCTs. The Department’s ongoing position on this issue has been that patients should not be expected to pay more than the equivalent cost of calling a geographical number, and, in the meantime, Ministers expect NHS organisations to continue to take this into account.

I will comment later.

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idb

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Re: PETITION to No. 10 - Prevent doctors using 084
Reply #212 - Dec 21^st, 2009 at 12:34pm

Expected waffle.

The well known group of liars, NEG, already knows that its business model is safe, as demonstrated by its statement in September:

Commenting on the Government's announcement, NEG Managing Director, major liar and chief patient-exploiter, Dean Rayment said

"We applaud the Government's decision to allow patients, GPs and other NHS professionals to continue to benefit from the increased services, convenience and choice that are provided by the use of 084 numbers. We were always confident that, once the full facts about NHS telephony services were considered objectively by the Department of Health, the retention of the option to choose 084 numbers would be seen to be the best solution for patients, GPs and the NHS."

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As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: PETITION to No. 10 - Prevent doctors using 084
Reply #213 - Dec 21^st, 2009 at 1:19pm

The extensive qualification with reference to 084 numbers that was included in the September statement has not been repeated since.

The issue remains about what is meant by "cost more" / "charge more" as this depends on the tariff in the case of all 084 numbers. Some callers will find that it is cheaper to call any 084 number than a 01/02/03 number during the daytime and with others the situation will be mixed and conditional.

It is for this reason that I have always held that it is use of revenue sharing numbers that must be banned, i.e. all 084 numbers. This consumerist nonsense, which leads to telco's offering perverse discounts on some calls and imposing penalty surcharges on others (to support the marketing of inclusive packages) distorts the situation and blinds us to the principle.

We must press on using the assurance that a simple ban on numbers which cost more than a geographic number has been announced. There is no reference to an exemption for those which SOMETIMES cost less. The directions issued to NHS bodies and the contractual changes MUST include the advice that (at least for the time being) all 084 numbers do cost many callers more and for this reason they must be considered to fall within the terms of the ban. If they do not, then nothing has changed, as use of 070, 087 and 09 numbers has already been banned.

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Maxadolf

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Petition on banning non-geographic, premium number
Reply #214 - Dec 21^st, 2009 at 1:14pm

I have just received a response on the petition to the Government relating to banning of premium, non-geographic numbers. Here is what I received:

“We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to prevent local health centres and hospitals from using 08 numbers such as 0844, 0845 or 0870.”

Details of Petition:

“Local health centres and NHS medical practices should be banned from using 08 numbers or offer a local 01 or 02 number alternative for booking appointments, as health centres make a profit using these numbers. For example, an 0870 number costs 10 pence per minute (whereby 4.5pence per minute goes to the local hospital).

Read the Government’s response
The Department of Health proposes to ban the use of premium rate numbers by NHS organisations. It has recently consulted on the use of 084 numbers in the NHS. The Department’s response to the consultation was published on 14 September, and is available on its website at: www.dh.gov.uk by typing ‘084 consultation response’ into the search bar.

The Department received approximately 3,000 responses to the consultation exercise; 2,000 from members of the public, a further 1,000 from the NHS, and a small number of responses from industry and other stakeholder organisations.

The consultation demonstrated that there is overwhelming support for the banning of numbers which cost the patient more to call than if they had called a normal geographical number (for example, numbers beginning 01 or 02). As a result of the consultation, the Department intends to amend legislation to stop the use of any telephone numbers which charge patients more to contact the NHS than the equivalent call to a geographical number. This will be enforced through amendments to the GP contract regulations, and the issuing of Directions to NHS Trusts and Primary Care Trusts (PCTs).

The ban will be enforced as soon as the necessary legislative changes can be made. This will be early next year for GP Practices, but as soon as practically possible for NHS Trusts and PCTs. The Department’s ongoing position on this issue has been that patients should not be expected to pay more than the equivalent cost of calling a geographical number, and, in the meantime, Ministers expect NHS organisations to continue to take this into account.

Another case of obtuseness by Gordon and his band of career incompetants! Why can't this idiot understand that the issue is also about banning non-geographic numbers that the various providers will not include into their "free" numbers package: why? Because they are non-geographic and replacing the numbers by other non-geographic numbers that cost the same as geographic numbers is not a solution to anyone not endowed with an amoeba brain cell. Gordon, just go asap!

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towny

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Re: PETITION to No. 10 - Prevent doctors using 084
Reply #215 - Dec 21^st, 2009 at 2:56pm

The response states that no-one should have to pay more to ring an NHS 084 number than they would to ring a normal geographic 01,02 number.
How is this going to work when some phone providers offer 084 numbers for free while others charge a premium, will all NHS 084, 087 numbers also have an equivalent geographic number given as well,.....I think not.
Why can't the Govt. just abolish all non geographic numbers that impose a higher charge than standard geographic numbers, surely that's not too difficult for Gordon and his neanderthal cronies to understand.

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« Last Edit: Dec 21^st, 2009 at 2:57pm by towny »

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Petition on banning non-geographic, premium nu
Reply #216 - Dec 21^st, 2009 at 2:57pm

Maxadolf wrote on Dec 21^st, 2009 at 1:14pm:

Why can't this idiot understand that the issue is also about banning non-geographic numbers that the various providers will not include into their "free" numbers package: why? Because they are non-geographic and replacing the numbers by other non-geographic numbers that cost the same as geographic numbers is not a solution

At the risk of having my intelligence insulted, and not wishing to insult that of anyone else, I beg to differ.

Inclusive packages are a red herring. The fact that BT, and some others, have included 0845 is perverse and totally misleading.

If a national service with calls being picked up in call centres all over the country, or indeed in two countries (according to the origin of the call), wishes to use a non-geographic number which costs no more than a call to a geographic number, then I see that as a perfectly acceptable solution.

There are many ways in which the competence of the present government may be challenged; on that I am happy to agree. If we want to make a Political issue out of this we must wonder who is going to put up the extra public money necessary to relieve NHS patients from the cost burden they are presently carrying because of the subsidy obtained from use of revenue sharing telephone numbers. Should Gordon go in order to make way for someone more ready to spend public money?

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poppasmurf

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Re: Petition on banning non-geographic, premium nu
Reply #217 - Dec 21^st, 2009 at 3:03pm

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Dec 21^st, 2009 at 2:57pm:

Maxadolf wrote on Dec 21^st, 2009 at 1:14pm:

Why can't this idiot understand that the issue is also about banning non-geographic numbers that the various providers will not include into their "free" numbers package: why? Because they are non-geographic and replacing the numbers by other non-geographic numbers that cost the same as geographic numbers is not a solution

At the risk of having my intelligence insulted, and not wishing to insult that of anyone else, I beg to differ.

Inclusive packages are a red herring. The fact that BT, and some others, have included 0845 is perverse and totally misleading.

If a national service with calls being picked up in call centres all over the country, or indeed in two countries (according to the origin of the call), wishes to use a non-geographic number which costs no more than a call to a geographic number, then I see that as a perfectly acceptable solution.

There are many ways in which the competence of the present government may be challenged; on that I am happy to agree. If we want to make a Political issue out of this we must wonder who is going to put up the extra public money necessary to relieve NHS patients from the cost burden they are presently carrying because of the subsidy obtained from use of revenue sharing telephone numbers. Should Gordon go in order to make way for someone more ready to spend public money?

I would totally agree with you on this.

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: PETITION to No. 10 - Prevent doctors using 084
Reply #218 - Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 10:25am

The Department of Health has failed.

On Friday (18 December), Dr A J Dawton & Partners of Humber Road Chelmsford adopted NEG Surgery Line, changing its telephone number from 01245 268635 to 0844 3878773. On Monday the number for its other surgery in Sunrise Avenue changed from 01245 266044 to 0844 3878777.

This newish range of 0844 numbers are classified as call type g11. These are marginally cheaper than g6 in some cases, but this makes no material difference whatsoever.

Given that this indicates the familiar commitment to a seven year contract (perhaps longer as the revenue share on g11 may be less than that on g6), the ban that was announced on 14 September and confirmed by the Prime Minister yesterday will not come into effect until at least 2016, during the parliament after next.

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sherbert

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Re: PETITION to No. 10 - Prevent doctors using 084
Reply #219 - Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 10:59am

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 10:25am:

This newish range of 0844 numbers are classified as call type g11. These are marginally cheaper than g6 in some cases, but this makes no material difference whatsoever.

Except that they are not included in the packages that gives you 'inclusive' calls

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: PETITION to No. 10 - Prevent doctors using 084
Reply #220 - Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 11:33am

sherbert wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 10:59am:

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 10:25am:

This newish range of 0844 numbers are classified as call type g11. These are marginally cheaper than g6 in some cases, but this makes no material difference whatsoever.

Except that they are not included in the packages that gives you 'inclusive' calls

Don't understand the point - are call type "g6" numbers ever included in packages?

g11 is cheaper than g6 where there is a distinction, although the two are often treated the same. I am not aware of any inclusive package that covers either. (By "inclusive packages" I refer to packages subject only to "normal usage" limits, rather than being for a specified number of call minutes.)

The "packages" issue is only of relevance in the case of BT and its clones, where the penalty charge applied to geographic calls outside a call plan makes them more expensive than the regulated rates for calling 0844 numbers. In all other cases calls to these 0844 numbers are more expensive regardless of whether or not a package is being used.

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poppasmurf

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Re: PETITION to No. 10 - Prevent doctors using 084
Reply #221 - Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 11:45am

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 10:25am:

The Department of Health has failed.

On Friday (18 December), Dr A J Dawton & Partners of Humber Road Chelmsford adopted NEG Surgery Line, changing its telephone number from 01245 268635 to 0844 3878773. On Monday the number for its other surgery in Sunrise Avenue changed from 01245 266044 to 0844 3878777.

This newish range of 0844 numbers are classified as call type g11. These are marginally cheaper than g6 in some cases, but this makes no material difference whatsoever.

Given that this indicates the familiar commitment to a seven year contract (perhaps longer as the revenue share on g11 may be less than that on g6), the ban that was announced on 14 September and confirmed by the Prime Minister yesterday will not come into effect until at least 2016, during the parliament after next.

Nothing on their website about moving to an 0844 number:
http://www.nhs.uk/ServiceDirectories/Pages/GP.aspx?Pid=B52D1C19-2ABD-4D16-AED6-6...
This website was updated on 18th December and is still giving the 01245 numbers.

Maybe someone who is a patient should send these doctors a copy of the latest missive from Downing Street?

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« Last Edit: Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 11:48am by poppasmurf »

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SilentCallsVictim Supreme Member Offline aka NHS.Patient, DH_fairtelecoms Posts: 2,494	Re: PETITION to No. 10 - Prevent doctors using 084 Reply #222 - Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 12:42pm poppasmurf wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 11:45am: Maybe someone who is a patient should send these doctors a copy of the latest missive from Downing Street? Lots of activity already in hand - further contributions would certainly be helpful. (Please note that this is a public forum.)
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evenasus

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Re: PETITION to No. 10 - Prevent doctors using 084
Reply #223 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 9:23am

[

size=12]My daughter-in-law had to ring this surgery last month when my grandson was very ill. She was worried sick and didn't think about the cost of the call - or calls as it turned out. She started ringing at 8am but she didn't know that the phone wasn't answered until 8'15am. She received her phone bill yesterday. Those calls cost her £3. 90! Shocked

This is disgusting! How can doctors MAKE money out of their patients. Angry

Are they not paid enough already!

[/size]

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2009 at 10:25am:

The Department of Health has failed.

On Friday (18 December), Dr A J Dawton & Partners of Humber Road Chelmsford adopted NEG Surgery Line, changing its telephone number from 01245 268635 to 0844 3878773. On Monday the number for its other surgery in Sunrise Avenue changed from 01245 266044 to 0844 3878777.

This newish range of 0844 numbers are classified as call type g11. These are marginally cheaper than g6 in some cases, but this makes no material difference whatsoever.

Given that this indicates the familiar commitment to a seven year contract (perhaps longer as the revenue share on g11 may be less than that on g6), the ban that was announced on 14 September and confirmed by the Prime Minister yesterday will not come into effect until at least 2016, during the parliament after next.

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loddon

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Re: PETITION to No. 10 - Prevent doctors using 084
Reply #224 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 5:43pm

Send them an invoice for the cost of the calls, citing the fact that the NHS should not cause patients to pay more than the cost of a normal geographic phone call, a requirement that has been issued as guidance by Ministers repeatedly since 2005.

Also write and complain about it to the Minister of Health Mike O'Brien, the BMA, your local PCT and copy all this to this site for the record and to your local press. If you would like help or guidance in doing this then let us know by asking a moderator to send us your contact details such as your email address and some veterans of our campaign will help or support you.

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« Last Edit: Mar 13^th, 2010 at 5:48pm by loddon »

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