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Samaritans Claim 0845 is Local Call on C4 Skins (Read 31,647 times)
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Samaritans Claim 0845 is Local Call on C4 Skins
Sep 19th, 2007 at 2:31pm
 
As none of the rest you have so far posted on this matter I seem to be the only one that was watching last night's (Tuesday 18th September) 10.35pm showing of Skins on Channel 4.

Towards the end of the program the delectable but scatty Cassie (Hannah Murray) was shown as making an unsuccessful suicide attempt after Sid showed no interest in her attempts to get him to become her boyfriend and she then overheard him asking out another girl.  As a result of this during the closing credits of the program a large turquoise box popped up in the right of the screen saying samaritans.org.uk and quoting the number 08457 90 90 90 (their spacing) with the statement "For the cost of a local call" and with this number also being confirmed by the C4 announcer saying the Samaritans were there for you 24 hours a day if you were in distress but without confirming the on screen "For the cost of a local call" statement.

The graphic with the Samaritans number and the statement "for the cost of a local call" seems to have been supplied directly by the Samaritan as on their website at www.samaritans.org/talk/phoneus.shtm they again state "In the UK dial 08457 90 90 90, for the cost of a local call."

We already know the Samaritans are longstanding, systematic and unapologetic 0845 misusers but this scale of misleading statement about their 0845 24 hour contact line being a "local call" after all the very clear guidances by the ASA will surely get a finding against them by the ASA this time.  As I understand the rules they are not forced to give a price indication in broadcast advertising but if they do it cannot be a misleading one since this in itself contravenes the Consumer Protection Act 1987 and ASA rules have a general requirement that television advertisements should not be misleading.

I therefore filed an official complaint on the ASA website and fired off the following email to the CEO of The Samaritans and other senior board members.  I then found the Samaritans didn't support firstname.lastname@samaritans.org and then when I called them at 10am their phone kept going repeatedly to voicemail on no rings saying they were closed and to ring back in office hours.  I then called the press out of hours mobile number where some idiot press officer gave me the wrong email format and claimed there was no problem with their switchboard.  Only later still did I get through to the switchboard and then the CEO's secretary who claimed they did have a major switchboard problem but no one had realised (wouldn't you notice not getting any calls for 2 hours if you were a receptionist) and told me the email address format was the completely non-standard a.lastnamename@samaritans.org where a is the initial of the person.  In the days when asurname was a more popular email format no one else I have seen ever used a dot between the initial and the surname.  Also why doesn't any large organisation always now support firstname.surname email address format as industry standard, even if they also support legacy format email addresses for their longer standing staff and/or have short name alternatives as well.

In any event below is my email to Samaritans CEO Dominic Rudd:-

Quote:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject:      Misleading Claims That Inappropriate Samaritans 0845 Number is Local Rate
Date:      Wed, 19 Sep 2007 06:25:53 +0100
To:      d.rudd@samaritans.org, ian.hargreaves@ofcom.org.uk, stephanie.liston@ofcom.org.uk, tessa.jowell@culture.gov.uk, john.fingleton@oft.gov.uk, sean.williams@oft.gov, jonathan.may@oft.gov.uk, vincent.smith@oft.gov.uk, martin.stanley@competition-commission.org.uk, david.roberts@competition-commission.org.uk, bob.tolliday@which.co.uk
CC:      s.evans@samaritans.org, p.collins@samaritans.org, j.payne@samaritans.org, j.field@samaritans.co.org, s.evans@samaritans.org, p.lamplugh@samaritans.org, ed.richards@ofcom.org.uk, jill.ainscough@ofcom.org.uk, steve.roberts@ofcom.org.uk, tim.suter@ofcom.org.uk, peter.culham@ofcom.org.uk, claudio.pollack@ofcom.org.uk, steve.unger@ofcom.org.uk, colette.bowe@ofcomconsumerpanel.org.uk, ChristopherG@asa.org.uk, GuyP@asa.org.uk, RogerW@asa.org.uk, consumer.panel@ofcom.org.uk, consumerpanel@ofcom.org.uk, andy.duncan@channel4.com, luke.johnson@channel4.com, suzie.hanson@channel4.com, bryan.eisley@channel4.com, george.faber@channel4.com, charles.pattinson@channel4.com, trustees@samaritans.org, ian.livingston@bt.com, ben.verwaayen@bt.com

Dear Mr Rudd,

I am writing to you in your position as Chief Executive of The Samaritans, as a result of watching the Channel 4 tv program Skins broadcast at 10.45pm last night (Tuesday 18th September) to complain about the 0845 7909090 number still quite unbelievably being used by the Samaritans as its main point of contact for distressed or depressed callers and which was displayed during the closing credits of the program.  I believe the Samaritan's number was given out by Channel 4 because one of the main characters in the program, Cassie, was shown as making an unsuccessful suicide attempt on her life during the latter part of the show.
Cont/...
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« Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2007 at 8:38am by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: Samaritans 0845 is "local call" claim on C4 Sk
Reply #1 - Sep 19th, 2007 at 2:33pm
 
Quote:
My reason for writing is to express my utter amazement, astonishment and sense of outrage that the Samaritans, who should be the last resort for desperate and especially suicidal people to call, is still using as its main contact number a number that is wholly and utterly inappropriate in every single way because far from being a "For the cost of a local call" number (as inaccurately but prominently stated in the logo shown for the Samaritans number on the Skins credits and about which I shall now be submitting a formal complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority as this violates numerous guidances by 084 and 087 numbers by them in the last two years on 084 and 087 numbers) it is in fact a non standard priced BT Special Rate Services number that is excluded from inclusive BT calling plans like BT Option 2 and BT Option 3 and from virtually all mobile phone inclusive call package bundles.  Even on BT Option 1 (the base BT price plan which many households still have) calls to the Samaritans on its 0845 number cost 60p per hour off peak (6pm to 6am) compared to just 5.5p for a 60 minute call to any number starting 01, 02 or now also 03 numbers (the latter being Ofcom's new standard priced national non geographic number code introduced at the end of August 2007).

The continued use by the Samaritans of 08457 909090 is really quite outrageous and totally inappropriate because most of your more desperate calls will obviously be made at night and yet it is vital that your callers (a) should be able to afford to contact you as many of your calls for help are long and (b) that calls should be confidential whereas using an 0845 number will ensure that these calls stick out like a sore thumb on any landline or mobile phone bill where normal 01/02 geographic calls are part of the call package and so are not listed.  Also as pay as you go inclusive mobile phone tariffs let people make calls for as little as 15p per hour off peak (Vodafone Smartplus) but a call on the same mobile phone and mobile tariff to the Samaritans 0845 number at the same time would cost £3.00 for the hour surely the adverse consequences of your continued blind inexcusable use of 0845 are really quite unthinkable.  That is to say either a student at university or someone living on the streets with only a pay as you go mobile could potentially be cut off mid call due to lack of credit or even worse a desperate wife being battered who calls your 0845 number then finds her husband immediately spots it on the next phone bill due due to its extra high cost cost status and so he beats her up once again for calling The Samaritans.

We all know how you will claim to historically have started using the 0845 numbers because once upon a time they only cost the same as 01/02 numbers for BT customers although even then it was a lie and even back in 1998 I could then call an equivalent of a normal 01/02 area code for 2p per minute in the daytime while 0845 numbers cost 4p per minute with my then lower cost call carrier than BT.  However the fact that you still continue to use the 0845 number today and do not provide a geographically priced 01/02 or now 03 alternative and also have to repeatedly lie about the real cost of the call in violation of ASA guidelines and in contravention of Part 3 of the Consumer Protection Act 1987 says to me that various people at The Samaritans (not least your your Director of Finance & Infrastructure and your Director of Service Support) are actively incompetent and deserve to lose their jobs.  In my view that also extends to the Chief Executive, Chairman and other board members and trustees responsible for accepting their advice on the phone number the organisation uses.  Ideally it should also further apply to board members at Ofcom who have completely failed the UK charitable sector as well as the police and some local council by failing to return 0845 phone numbers to the status of ordinary priced geographic phone calls included in calling plans as will happen on 1st February 2008 for 0870 numbers but not for 0845 numbers.  And what is Ofcom's pitiful and utterly pathetic excuse for this massive regulatory failure on its part to fulfil its principal duty given to it under the Communications Act 2003 to put first the interests of UK citizens and UK consumers - apparently only that it might have meant a slight bit of minor inconvenience and involved a slight loss of profit for what is now a virtually non existent remaining 0845 dial up internet industry (with most internet use at home now being by ADSL broadband).
Cont/................
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« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2007 at 2:40pm by NGMsGhost »  

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Re: Samaritans 0845 is "local call" claim on C4 Sk
Reply #2 - Sep 19th, 2007 at 2:35pm
 
Quote:
However given the failure of the UK telecoms regulator to take the appropriate remedial regulatory action there is still no reason whatsoever that large national call redirection systems need to be operated on a non standard priced 084 or 087 Special Rate Services (or in layman's language and checking the dictionary definition of the work premium - "covert premium rate" numbers).  Even prior to Ofcom's launch of its new 03 code at the end of August 2007 (allowing companies to operate an NGN call redirection number at some extra cost to them but no extra cost to their caller and also involving the unfortunate inconvenience of companies wanting to do this having to change their phone number) it was still always possible to operate elaborate national call redirection systems to call centres.  The only difference was that using an 020 or other standard area code number and redirecting it cost the body receiving the calls more money than an 084 or 087 number where they instead make an extra hidden charge on their callers.  And while for some organisations (especially in the commercial sector) that extra cost might be unaffordable for The Samaritans offering a 24 hour number for contact that does not cost extra over a normal geographic call and even more importantly cannot be easily identified by husbands or wives or parents or employers on phone bills is surely absolutely central to everything it does.

Since certain high level people at The Samaritans seem to have their head well and truly buried in concrete rather than just in sand on this issue and will not face up to the truth or respond to it can I direct you to the following references which show why 0845 numbers are not "local rate" and why are you violating ASA guidances and in potential contravention of the Consumer Protection Act 1987 regarding misleading price indications by making such claims:-

The view of a county council trading standards department

Para 1.3 Page 1 of http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/oftel_0845/responses/leicester_cc.pdf

and 

the view of none other than the CEO of BT Retail, Ian Livingston

http://business.scotsman.com/banking.cfm?id=764772005

and

two guidances from the Advertising Standards Authority

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Hanging+on+the+telephone+on+and+on+and+...

www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm

and

the Parliamentary Early Day motion deploring the use of 0870 telephone numbers by government departments

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=28872%09%09%09%09%09%09%09&...; amp;SESSION=875

the more recent Parliamentary Early Day motion deploring the use of covert premium rate 0844 telephone numbers by some less principled doctors surgeries.

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=33855&SESSION=885

and

Another guidance from the Committee of Advertising Practice of the Advertising Standards Authority

www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/CAP+rings+the+changes+for+telecoms+prov...

and Pages 5 and 6 of the below minutes from my own district council during my time as a councillor where it agreed policy to stop the future use of 0845 and 0870 numbers.

www.molevalley.gov.uk/media/pdf/1/s/Council_Minutes_190705.pdf

And the most recent ASA guidance saying that Inclusive call packages must not fail to disclose that 084/7 calls are excluded from them.

www.cap.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2006/Ringing+the+Changes.htm

Finally Ofcom's statement on the launch of its new national 03 number code that will not cost callers any extra compared to normal 01 and 02 prefixed phone numbers.

www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/numbering03/statement/

The Samaritans continued apparently quite deliberate attempts to actively mislead the public over the cost of 0845 calls to it are really totally inexcusable and quite shocking given not just the extra financial cost for your callers but the obvious danger of a call to The Samaritans then being highlighted and easily identified by bill payers when it may be vital to the caller that the call is not so identified.  I would also note that these misleading price indications that its 0845 number is Local Rate have historically also been given by The Samaritans in many other places including every single BT Phone Book.

I look forward to your comments regarding this matter.
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Re: Samaritans claim 0845 is "local call" on C4 Sk
Reply #3 - Sep 19th, 2007 at 9:54pm
 
NGM,

you are to be congratulated on your persistence and indefatigability.   You are one of the treasures of this wonderful website.   It will be interesting to see what sort of reply you get from the ASA, Ofcom and the Samaritans, if indeed they can be bothered to compose a reply.   If there is any justice and corresponding reward for your effort the Samaritans will immediately see the horror (I mean error) of their ways and announce a change to a geographic, and possibly also a freephone, main contact number.   There should be no need at all for any further correspondence or discussion on the matter.    I don't see how they can possibly act in any other way ....... if they have any sort of conscience, compassion and sense of responsibility.

We will be able to judge the true nature of that organisation by the nature of their reply.   It will reflect precisely the type of people running the Samaritans, they way they think and the way they feel.    Whatever and however they respond their response should be given the widest possible publicity.   If their response shows realism, responsibility, compassion and conscience then they will no doubt bask in a sea of respect, esteem and highest regard as leading thinkers within their charitable industry group and within the wider community.   If their response is otherwise then the people of this country will know exactly what to think of them.
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Re: Samaritans claim 0845 is "local call" on C4 Sk
Reply #4 - Sep 19th, 2007 at 10:50pm
 
loddon wrote on Sep 19th, 2007 at 9:54pm:
We will be able to judge the true nature of that organisation by the nature of their reply.   It will reflect precisely the type of people running the Samaritans, they way they think and the way they feel.    Whatever and however they respond their response should be given the widest possible publicity.   If their response shows realism, responsibility, compassion and conscience then they will no doubt bask in a sea of respect, esteem and highest regard as leading thinkers within their charitable industry group and within the wider community.   If their response is otherwise then the people of this country will know exactly what to think of them.


The signs thus far are not very encouraging.

Having finally got the email address format right I have had a number of read receipts from the senior execs but not one has sent me an email thanking for me drawing this matter to their attention and saying they are now looking in to it.  Signs of action at the ASA have been swifter and I have already had an acknowledgement of my complaint with a case number and have been told it has been assigned to a case officer.  Also in my complaint I made it very clear I would vigorously contest any attempt by the ASA to claim this matter was not within their remit.

The Samaritans have very elaborate call redirection phone arrangements with calls being redirected between different volunteer centres all around the UK 24 hours a day (and only a few of the bigger ones being open through the night) to balance load depending on demand and I suspect that the whole technological setup including the phone equipment and headsets etc and the call redirection cost is all currently paid for by their telco out of the no doubt enormous profits they make on the 0845 calls.

However as my complaint deliberately cut off all of The Samaritans predictable likely channels of deceit and obfusction and comes after the launch of nationwide 03 they are clearly going to have try a lot harder to come up with any plausible excuse for continuing to use 0845 when it is so inappropriate in the circumstance of people making confidential calls that they are not going to want to be questioned about making by other members of their household.
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Re: Samaritans claim 0845 is "local call" on C4 Sk
Reply #5 - Sep 19th, 2007 at 11:49pm
 
NGMsGhost wrote on Sep 19th, 2007 at 10:50pm:
[...] I have had a number of read receipts from the senior execs but not one has sent me an email thanking for me drawing this matter to their attention and saying they are now looking in to it. [...]


I shouldn't be at all surprised about that. When I sent emails about the StealthNET scam to some sites with the incorrect number and details, I did not receive one email back thanking me for pointing it out (I know they received them as atleast one site was updated). Also, my congratulations to certain companies regarding their use of geographic numbers have similarly gone unanswered. Common courtesy and decency seem to go out of the window when electronic mail is the order of the day...
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Re: Samaritans claim 0845 is "local call" on C4 Sk
Reply #6 - Sep 19th, 2007 at 11:58pm
 
jgxenite wrote on Sep 19th, 2007 at 11:49pm:
Common courtesy and decency seem to go out of the window when electronic mail is the order of the day...


Unfortunately common courtesy going out of the window in business these days seems to extend an awful lot wider than just email in my experience.

Although there are still some very courteous people left in business too.
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Re: Samaritans claim 0845 is "local call" on C4 Sk
Reply #7 - Sep 20th, 2007 at 12:00am
 
It seems to me that companies and organisations seem obliged to ignore emails of congratulation or enquiry - I emailed another company regarding a product enquiry, and have never had a reply back. It is quite unfortunate because I used to use one of their products a few years ago, but I doubt I shall be dealing with them following that experience.
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Re: Samaritans claim 0845 is "local call" on C4 Sk
Reply #8 - Sep 20th, 2007 at 8:41am
 
jgxenite wrote on Sep 20th, 2007 at 12:00am:
I emailed another company regarding a product enquiry, and have never had a reply back. It is quite unfortunate because I used to use one of their products a few years ago, but I doubt I shall be dealing with them following that experience.


Which forces us to then call their ripoff 084 or 087 numbers if we cannot find an alternative on this website.  Companies using 084 or 087 numbers often claim no cost alternative means of interaction are available but as you say if you send an email to a customer services department then 7 times out of 10 it is not replied to.  Only online account management where you can change things yourself actually works.
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Re: Samaritans Claim 0845 is Local Call on C4 Skin
Reply #9 - Sep 20th, 2007 at 9:16am
 
This company in question doesn't actually have any rip off numbers - their customer service number is actually an 0800 number! I just decided that it was easiest to submit the product enquiry via email instead of contacting them on the phone. It is just unfortunate that, as I mentioned before, it seems that email is generally ignored these days by large organisations.
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Re: Samaritans Claim 0845 is Local Call on C4 Skin
Reply #10 - Sep 22nd, 2007 at 12:35am
 
Before anyone jumps on me I totally agree with your right to express your views on the use of calls to generate income even though they are not views I share.

I do however find attacking the samaritans a tad over the top, for example, saying the wife may get beaten when the husband reads the phone bill is a mute point as far as I know.  I am sure the OP did his research, but are the samaritans not exempt from showing up on phone bills? I'm sure this an agreement shared by the samaritans and childline (that isn't an invitation to attack another charity Tongue ) where the calls to them do not show up on the phone bill.

When it comes to large corporations I do agree that certain ones of them do need to be taken down a peg or two but surely the line must be drawn somewhere, this organisation is run by good people and provides a very helpful service, if it did not it would have disappeared a long time ago.  The closest thing to "a success" you could get by attacking this kind of organisation would be getting them to shut down.  Surely it would be worth weighing up the pros and the cons rather than just launching in with the black and white view that 0845 numbers are evil.

This post is not here to cause any arguments, it is merely me trying to show my view, which is the other side of the coin. Smiley
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Re: Samaritans Claim 0845 is Local Call on C4 Skin
Reply #11 - Sep 22nd, 2007 at 1:03am
 
Also, stating that poor customer service by e-mail means you have to call them up on an expensive number is a means to good revenue is odd, I have dealt with companies where I can't get the quick response I need via mail so I call them.  If this leads to me spending a fortune on the phone I take my custom elsewhere.

Before I become a customer of anyone I fully research how I can contact them, I look for reviews showing how efficient they are with answering calls etc.  I don't see how anyone can complain about 08... numbers used by a company they have chosen, the best way to express your views is to vote with your feet, go to a company with a geographic number if you feel so strongly about it.  I personally believe that call centres need to be paid for, if you weren't paying for it on the calls it would be shifted on to another bill, nothing comes for free, and if it does it is generally pretty poor service.

After reading this topic I did a search on google, and the first link that came up (after this thread) was a link showing a geographic number for the samaritans.  Does anyone here honestly think someone is lining their pockets from call revenue? If so do you not think this would have been picked up by now? Even Blue Peter have been picked up for not naming their new pet what the viewers wanted, are the samaritans not already going to be open to the same amount of scrutiny? Do you think that noone checks their books at the end of the year?
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Re: Samaritans Claim 0845 is Local Call on C4 Skin
Reply #12 - Sep 22nd, 2007 at 12:51pm
 
student wrote on Sep 22nd, 2007 at 12:35am:
but are the samaritans not exempt from showing up on phone bills? I'm sure this an agreement shared by the samaritans and childline (that isn't an invitation to attack another charity Tongue ) where the calls to them do not show up on the phone bil



Childline uses an 0800,(freephone number), and as such does not appear on bills, an 0845 number is a chargeable number and has to be shown on a bill otherwise the bill total would be incorrect and someone,(the bill payer), has to pay for that call.

student wrote on Sep 22nd, 2007 at 1:03am:
Before I become a customer of anyone I fully research how I can contact them, I look for reviews showing how efficient they are with answering calls etc.  I don't see how anyone can complain about 08... numbers used by a company they have chosen, the best way to express your views is to vote with your feet, go to a company with a geographic number if you feel so strongly about it.


As far as I know there is only one Samaritans, so how can you vote with your feet if that is who you need to call?
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Re: Samaritans Claim 0845 is Local Call on C4 Skin
Reply #13 - Sep 22nd, 2007 at 2:47pm
 
My comment about voting with your feet was aimed at the following rather than with the samaritans

Quote:
Which forces us to then call their ripoff 084 or 087 numbers if we cannot find an alternative on this website.  Companies using 084 or 087 numbers often claim no cost alternative means of interaction are available but as you say if you send an email to a customer services department then 7 times out of 10 it is not replied to.  Only online account management where you can change things yourself actually works.


Apologies, I should have made this clearer.

Also with the number not showing up on phone bills, it would appear I was incorrect with that, but the samaritans do provide geographic numbers for some of their branches, I assume that they chose to have one number that people could contact to show in their national adverts.

The samaritans charity appears to be a very expensive one to run and, unfortunately, this appears to be a good way to get some of that money back, otherwise they may be forced to shut down.  Also I have seen a few reports where they call people back to save the phone bill, so there would be no danger of the caller running out of credit as stated by the OP.
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Re: Samaritans Claim 0845 is Local Call on C4 Skin
Reply #14 - Sep 22nd, 2007 at 3:09pm
 
Quote:
I personally believe that call centres need to be paid for, if you weren't paying for it on the calls it would be shifted on to another bill, nothing comes for free, and if it does it is generally pretty poor service.


This is an argument that comes up time and time again. It's more usually peddled by the companies themselves. The truth is that just about everywhere else in the world manages service and call centres without having ridiculously expensive numbers, and often gives a far better service. My experience with customer service in the UK is that it is mainly very poor - and that is generally regardless of the number called. Britain is well known as one of the most expensive countries - if not the most expensive country - to live in. You would think with such high prices, organisations would easily have the budget for free, or at least a low cost, customer service.

I don't want to keep on about this, but virtually all customer service in the USA is via a 1-800 number. Free. Gratis. And, what's more - free from your cell phone too! In Australia, most companies use a 1300 number. You pay a fixed fee - 25c (about 10p) regardless of how long the call is. Not as good as the US system, but still considerably better than the UK! I've hung on for 50 minutes waiting for a technician in Oz - still the same 25c! How much would that have been on 0871? (It's sad but true that the cell phone companies in Oz take a leaf from their UK counterparts and charge for 1-800 and 1-300 numbers - but at least only at normal call rates).

And here's the rub. It is considerably cheaper to live in Oz or the USA. Sort of kills the argument that the '...prices will rise if the cost of the call centres is not recovered via premium numbers'.  Wink
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