DonQuixote wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 11:17am:

It is astonishing that in this day and age of a 'free' telecoms market that there are those who are actually profitting (profiteering) out of someone else's position of being elderly and in need of help. This lady had no choice of whether to use the service, but the service provider charges a premium each time her pendant device dials up. And of course there's the amount the telco takes above what it would have done had it been a 01/02 number.

Dave wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 12:10pm:


I would agree with Dave normally, but perhaps he misses just one point...
This number could have been programmed in before 0870 and before phoneday. (070 numbers started in the early 90's I think).

In any case, Dave, surely calls are so rare in alarm cases, it can hardly be a great way to make money, surely the service fee is the bulk of the income for alarm companies? But perhaps you know better or think one 50 pence call per year is big money.

So I guess it was probably just an old system that had never been updated (don't fix it if it ain't broken).
Ofcom just forgot to think about, even though they should have done! ...and broke it anyway. 

  Am I missing something, the whole idea of the change was to make 0870 cost the same as 01/02, so there is no need for a pre-call announcement in this case, and this part of the change does not need to be delayed. The other argument about companies having a problem changing their 0870 number has been totally discredited by the raft of companies that have suddenly found a technical solution (in changing to 0871/0844 so very quickly and smoothly DESPITE the problem of informing customers) to the problem of needing 0870 as an unchanging point of entry into their offices that may need to constantly change the underlying geographic number without the need to update customers.

    Permanently programmed 070 alarms are a legitimate reason to delay the inclusion of a pre-recorded message on all such calls, since this would disadvantage consumers, and even be a risk to their safety.

   OFCOM could still go ahead with charging changes to 0870, but hold back on the other changes. There should be no option for some companies to negotiate a stay of execution on their own 0870 numbers, this would only add to public confusion, they should be forced to be honest and change to a recognised premium number such as 0871 with the choice of 6ppp to 10ppp bands.
   Hopefully, the public will quickly become educated as to the nature of 0871.
  Personally,  I would have wanted 0871 abolished, and a new 09 number introduced, as there is no problem with the general public recognising 09 as premium rate, and they also have the option of having the 09 series blocked on their outgoing line.

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2204634,00.html

Ofcom puts cheaper 0870 numbers on hold

Miles Brignall
Saturday November 3, 2007
The Guardian

<<
There was bad news for home phone users yesterday after it emerged the telecoms regulator has quietly delayed plans that would have seen the end of expensive 0870 phone calls.
Following a consumer campaign, Ofcom had agreed that 0870 numbers, which typically cost up to 10p a minute, should be priced at no more than standard landline calls. That was due to come into force on February 1 next year.

However, it emerged last night that Ofcom has delayed its implementation by a "short period" because of concerns that some household alarm systems would not work under the new regime.

Consumer groups complained that Ofcom told the telecoms industry of the delay but did not make a formal announcement.
The 0870 numbers, which can cost as much as 40p a minute if dialled from a mobile phone, have become a money-spinner for the companies called as they typically get about 40% of the call's cost. Almost every customer hotline and many government departments routinely use 0870 numbers. The calls often feature long waits on hold. In 2003, calls to numbers with an 08 prefix cost UK consumers £850m.

Ofcom had ordered that all calls after next February should cost the same as standard calls to numbers with an 01 or 02 prefix. Companies that wanted to carry on charging the higher rate had to warn of the call's cost at the start - something it has now discovered would not work with home alarm systems.

A spokesman for Ofcom said: "There's no change to our overall policy. The key point about these changes is bringing down the price of calls to 0870, which will happen in spring next year. The pre-call announcement option would only be relevant to providers who chose to depart from that general rule. We will keep any delay to a minimum."

David Hickson, a member of the Saynoto0870.com group, which offers consumers alternative numbers to call, said: "We have been waiting patiently for the new rules to come into place and finally end the rip-off that 0870 numbers represent. To find that Ofcom has suspended this at the eleventh hour is both frustrating and very disappointing."
>>

Dave wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 1:28pm:

Totally agree with you. I have no choice but to accept my ADT alarm dials a premium rate 09 number, which costs much more than 070.
Now is that unacceptable?
Not really. In fact the odd premium rate call is insignificant compared to my annual service fee, which is reduced as a result of the 09 revenue, so I don't complain, as we all pay in the end. The debate is just by what channel.

So shouldn't the real debate be about the inappropriate use of 0870, not 0870 itself? 

DonQuixote wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 12:21am:
Indeed, I wish to take issue with some of your points.

DonQuixote wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 12:21am:
Part of that maturing occurred when the link with “national rate” was broken. This may have occurred for sound business reasons, but the need for transparency of charging meant that continuing exploitation of an outdated link had become misleading and had to be stopped.

We may have good reason to regret it, but in the fast moving world of telecomms "mature" means 3-4 years old, different words are properly applied to a model that is 10 years old.  

DonQuixote wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 12:21am:
The CPs were aware of the unsuitability of pre-announcements for lines used by modems and alarms in January 2005. Nobody has been required to use pre-announcements. One must wonder why CPs were still minded to make the choice to use pre-announcements having done nothing to resolve the problems they knew this would cause, in October 2007.

DonQuixote wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 12:21am:
I hope that nobody is seeking to suggest that all those who use 0870 numbers and provide access to them are inherently evil. This is simply about restoring transparency in charging (which includes VAT for most customers).

Those who offer a valuable service or promote a good cause should have no problem in declaring a fair price for a call to a premium rate number. 0871 is one of a number of ranges available for this purpose.

DonQuixote wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 12:21am:
I do not fully understand this point, but it sounds as though 0870 is being defended because it is "stealth premium rate" and thereby may be used as a scam to evade measures implemented for the benefit of other EU citizens. However much one may think it “proper” to scam Germans and other foreigners, 0870 is no less effective in scamming the British.

DonQuixote wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 12:21am:
I hope Ofcom did not forget this perfectly valid point! 0871 is one of a number of ranges available for those who wish callers to provide subsidies for call centres, which are otherwise funded from other sources of revenue.

It would generally be accepted that many public services, e.g. NHS and the Police, should be funded in full by the taxpayer and not by citizens as they use the services. Public service providers, as with others, who charge fees to callers should be required to declare this openly.

DonQuixote wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 12:21am:
As I understand it, it was because Ofcom’s powers as a regulator did not extend to price fixing that pre-call announcements were demanded as a last resort for those who chose not to comply with straightforward requirements to provide price transparency.

Competition in a free market relies on clarity, openness in dealing and transparency in pricing. This exists (to a significant degree) between CPs in geographic call pricing (which now includes 03) and is self-regulated in the interests of the market for premium rate calls (now to include 0871). Those presently involved in what you describe as “this 0870 mess” must decide which way they wish to go, so as to become part of a (relatively) free and open competitive market.

DonQuixote wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 12:21am:

I do not completely share your summarised analysis of the organisation in general, although its actions on this matter over recent days match your description very well.

I do however concur entirely with the latter point; it is unfortunate that Ofcom’s efforts to bring it to an end (by trying to get everyone to abandon, the rightly much-despised, 0870) have not been successful.

idb wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 2:12am:

Double the real cost and a tenth of the service. 

But poor old ADT in the UK is taxed to the hilt, via stealth national insurance (13%+11%) and fuel tax (80%+17.5%VAT), now at $9 per US gallon.
This pays for our fat Government and inefficient social services. 

DonQuixote wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 9:19am:

This point was raised and Ofcom argues that fixing the price of 03 to that of 01/02 is not "price fixing". Telcos (OCPs) can charge what they like.