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Another delay? (Read 10,329 times)

crabtree Junior Member Offline Posts: 74 Wigan	Another delay? Nov 1^st, 2007 at 3:39pm Ofcom's 0870 rip-off reforms stumble at the final hurdle! http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/01/ofcom_0870_snag/
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loddon

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Re: Another delay?
Reply #1 - Nov 1^st, 2007 at 6:32pm

It is worth looking at the text of this report, as below : ---

Ofcom's 0870 rip-off reforms stumble at the final hurdle
Burglar bungling delays consumer protection

By Chris Williams
Published Thursday 1st November 2007 14:20

Ofcom has postponed long-scheduled new rules designed to clamp down on the non-geographic number rip-off, after it realised that its rules could scupper burglar alarms and monitoring systems for vulnerable people.

Regulators have kept the news quiet. There's no announcement on its website. Ofcom told industry at a call routing focus group last week, according to operator Numberstore.

Ofcom told the Reg the hold-up has been prompted by a submission from a trade body called the UK Competitive Telecommunications Association (UKCTA). Its document, dated January 7 2005 (pdf, pages 12 and 13), warns on technical issues caused by plans for free pre-announcements on expensive calls.

An Ofcom spokeswoman said regulators had only become aware of the issue relating to alarm systems in the last few weeks.

When it drew up the new regulations more than 18 months ago, Ofcom decided to allow firms to opt out of providing standard rate national numbers - if they put out a free warning that the call will cost extra before it is answered. The problem is that many alarms automatically dial out to 0870 numbers when they are tripped. Some will time out if the call is not answered quickly, which could mean an emergency goes unreported.

The spokeswoman said: "Ofcom is investigating how to deal with the very specific case of alarm and safety services running on 0870. Ofcom is committed to introducing rules to make it clear to consumers what they will pay when calling 0870."

Consumers are forced to use 0870 numbers by banks, call centres and government bodies.

The further review means consumers won't be protected from high charges until spring or even summer next year. The delay will last "weeks to a few months", Ofcom confirmed.

Regulators acted after an outcry from consumer groups, including the campaigning website Saynoto0870.com. Currently, calls can cost up to three times the ordinary national rate, though many people don't know it.

After reading submissions - including UKCTA's - watchdogs launched a consultation on slashing rates for calling 0870 numbers back in September 2005. The stated aim was to end the practice within a year. When it eventually released concrete proposals in April 2006, the date had already slipped to February 2008.

Today Ofcom's spokeswoman assured us there will be no U-turn on the regulations. "The commitment is totally still there," she said.

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loddon

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Re: Another delay?
Reply #2 - Nov 1^st, 2007 at 6:43pm

There are 14 comments on this story on The Register's website. Below is a sample of what they say : ---

No good whatsoever [u]
By Anonymous CowardPosted Thursday 1st November 2007 14:25 GMT
"Ofcom decided to allow firms to opt out of providing standard rate national numbers - if they put out a free warning that the call will cost extra before it is answered."

Typical of ofcom, Make the rule useless before its even had a chance.

This is absolutely going to solve nothing. Companies should NOT be allowed to use 0870 numbers exclusively, with or without a warning.

How is a warning going to help me, if its not also compulsory for the company to provide an alternative?

And you can bet there's no intelligence in the rest of their proposals either, such as not allowing call queuing or IVR systems on 0870 numbers?

Say no to 0870 -- and definitely, NO to the twits at OFCOM too.

Why is this OfCom's problem?
By Andy TaylorPosted Thursday 1st November 2007 14:38 GMT
No one is forcing alarm companies to use these non-geographic numbers, so why should OfCom have to accommodate them? It sounds a bit desperate to me.

I'd have thought that using a freephone number and then billing the customer back for calls made (or a flat rate per month) would end up being more profitable anyway.

An issue that OfCom should take notice of is that most companies offering inclusive minutes or free calls specifically exclude all calls to non-geographic numbers.

Finally, saynot0870.com is a marvellous web site

Not cheap
By Anonymous CowardPosted Thursday 1st November 2007 14:44 GMT
I use my mobile phone for most of my calls as do lots of other people. The 0870 problem is just the tip of the iceberg here - you also have 0800 numbers which are charged at the regular rate when calling from a mobile and cant be part of your monthly minutes allowance.

Mobile phone calls are generally included in your monthly plan so the cost is very low - I know I get about 500 minutes per month on my plan and never use them all but there are always charges on my monthly randomised invoice from vodafone for a few 0870 and 0800 calls that I have made and these are not charged at a pittance as Tanuki suggests

Its worse on mobiles
By Simon DayPosted Thursday 1st November 2007 14:48 GMT
Ìts infinitely more expensive when you have to use an 0845/0870 or even a 0800 number on mobiles.

Up until recently these national rate calls could be used from your free minutes.

No longer - even if you have a high tarrif with tonnes of time to spare on it, you will still be charged in full for these calls - this is what I find terrible.

Ok provide a national rate number if its to make it easy for customers - but it really needs to be made compulsary that a normal number is also available, and printed with the 08xxx number.

Banks are some of the worst - take barclaycard - they give their 0870 number, include a normal number (for dialing from abroad) but only let you use that to deal with lost or stolen cards!!!

Pittance per minute?
By IanPosted Thursday 1st November 2007 14:52 GMT
only if you use a landline. Like many people here in the 21st Century, I almost exclusively use a mobile, and calls to 0870 numbers from these are hardly a pittance. In fact they are downright expensive.

Most frequently, I am affected by this when I need to call National Rail Enquiries when I am on the move. How can there be any justification for their forcing me to pay a premium to get information about our nation's trains just because I don't have a landline handy?

I don't see the problem
By Anonymous CowardPosted Thursday 1st November 2007 15:31
Any revenue which alarm companies get from 0870 numbers is purely incedental as the devices only call on the rare occasion that there is an emergency - I would imagine that most of their revenue comes from subscriptions. AFAICS the only reason that alarm companies use non-geographic numbers is so they don't have to fix the machines if they change geographic location (and therefore geographic number).

All the alarm companies need do is 'offer' a geograpic number, thereby opting out of the requirement to provide a recorded message - leaving their service unaffected. AFAIK all non-geographic numbers are tied to a geographic number somewhere along the line so all the have to do is advertise it in the small print somewhere.

Waste of space
By Red BrenPosted Thursday 1st November 2007 15:47 GMT
Yet again, OFCOM capitulate to an industry lobby group because unlike other regulators, they believe their remit is to ensure a level playing field between competitors rather than looking after the interests of the consumer. As long as all players are using the same rip-off tactics, OFCOM doesn't care.

What OFCOM should be doing is enforcing the pricing of non-geographic numbers so it costs the same regardless of if you're using a land line or mobile.

And if the technology exists to notify you of the call charges before you're connected, can we have a system that where you don't pay call charges while on hold?

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loddon

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Re: Another delay?
Reply #3 - Nov 1^st, 2007 at 6:50pm

Some further public comments : ---

Come on Ofcom, do something usefull for a change!
By Dr. MousePosted Thursday 1st November 2007 15:54 GMT
I should've known Ofcom would do nothing (or effectively nothing).

Here's what I reckon should be done.

1) 0800 are FREEphone numbers, so they should be FREE! The co. using them pays for every call received on them (at least from what I've seen). So whay should I pay loads aswell?

2) 0845 and 0870 numbers were supposed to be Local- and National-rate numbers, more for having one number from everywhere than anything else. These should be kept as Local and National rate (and included in free minutes).

3) If companies want to make money from numbers, let people know they are Premium Rate by forcing them to use 09xx numbers. 0845 and 0870 are being used as sources of income, which in essence is a premium-rate number. Why let them hide behind these numbers?

Get back to basics.

If they wont do the above, they should at least ban queues on 08xx numbers (including 0800 if they are not free from every phone). Force them to use a callback queue. The amount of money I have spent on ringing BT recently (£100 one month on my mobile, because the landline was dead, therefore my broadband was dead so my VoIP line was dead, so my only option was to use the mobile), but thats an 0800 number, it should be free!

Ofcom should've stepped in before now, thlast time freephone calls were free from a mobile was on Virgin, and that was around the turn of the millenium. GET YOUR FINGERS OUT OFCOM!!!!

"Held in a queue ..."
By Nano nanoPosted Thursday 1st November 2007 16:11 GMT
I wouldn't mind paying over the odds for an 0870 call if I was only paying for the call itself and not the queuing.

Why can't it just keep ringing until there's someone available - like with a normal business ? Then I start to pay.

@ Dr Mouse
By Anonymous CowardPosted Thursday 1st November 2007 16:30 GMT
Oh dear, your dependency on a mobile phone costs you dear.

Have you tried that new fangled invention, pen,paper and a 6d postage stamp.

Whatttttt!! The blessed stamps are now 34p each. Get off.

You'll be telling me next that their boss earns a £1m a year for playing footie.

Who needs a pirate ship these days?

Can i take this coat off yet, me arms are numb?

But we are in Ripoff Britain
By gautamPosted Thursday 1st November 2007 16:35 GMT

Dont you ranters know where we live? Is it any surprise that all operators do this? This has to be the most hideous charge ever. Its cheaper( or free) to call my cousins in Canada and USA than call my Bank's local number on the high street, or my very next door neighbour for that matter.

How bad can it get!

OFCOm was in BTs pocket all along and now they suck up to all the other operators.

Consumers? Who are they?

Unless there is groundswell of revolt, we are in for a long ride. Maybe time to imitate the French Farmers.

@ Tanuki
By Secret SantaPosted Thursday 1st November 2007 17:08 GMT
Dude You don't get it....

It's remarkably easy to sit in a call queue to a company for 20-30 minutes when you're trying to sort out a problem. At 10p per minute (which is not an unusual charge for these numbers) that means you've possibly spent £3 before you've even spoken to anyone, then of course you usually have to make 3-4 calls in total....then you get cut off at least once......then you have to re-explain everything to the next 'call centre staff member' which chews up more of your time and money.......then when they haven't done what they say they were going to do you start the process again next month. Don't forget in many cases the company concerned gets a share of the call revenue....at 10p per minute they'll usually get more then 3p per minute if the call volume is high enough.

By the time all of this is added up you've probably spent a minimum of £30 and £100 to sort out a problem is not unusual.

In many instances because the company screwed up.

I use an asterisk system that records all my calls and I get the full name of the individual I'm talking to before I tell them the call is being recorded (for training purposes). If they caused the problem I always get them to agree to credit my calls back to my account as well.

Until they're motivated that incoming calls are not a revenue stream and potential profit centre they'll continue to abuse the systems

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Dave Global Moderator Offline Posts: 9,902 Yorkshire Gender:	Re: Another delay? Reply #4 - Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 10:08pm BT has published some information on this and the delay in extension of PhonePayPlus' regulation here: http://www.bt.com/0870
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jgxenite Supreme Member Offline Help us to help you - read the instructions!! Posts: 1,454 Gender:	Re: Another delay? Reply #5 - Nov 2^nd, 2007 at 11:06pm I find this amusing... Quote: Change to a different dialling code, eg 03xx, 0844 or 0871, and continue to make money from calls ... and I thought the idea behind 03 numbers was that there was no revenue sharing...
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Golf_Paul Junior Member Offline Posts: 71 KC Land Gender:	Re: Another delay? Reply #6 - Nov 3^rd, 2007 at 12:30pm ..... and from the same BT document ... >> The plans for PhonepayPlus (formally known as ICSTIS) It should of course be "formerly". Complete muppets.
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