SAYNOTO0870.COM - Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame)

Ian01

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Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame)
Reply #150 - Oct 10^th, 2015 at 6:33pm

All non-geographic numbers starting 03, 08 and 09 offer the same call-handling and call-forwarding facilities. Those facilities and features have to be paid for. The difference between the various prefixes comes down to who pays those additional costs. With 03 and 080 numbers it is the called party. With 084 and 087 numbers it is the caller that pays through the imposition of a declared Service Charge.

Does NT really think that the couple of pence per minute they receive from the Service Charge revenue in any way justifies exposing callers to Access Charges of up to 12p per minute from landlines or up to 45p per minute from mobiles?

The reference to 0844 numbers sometimes being cheaper to call than 0344 numbers is erroneous. This hasn't been true since 1 July 2015. It only ever applied to calls made from a BT landline without an inclusive call plan, and certainly does not apply now.

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« Last Edit: Oct 10^th, 2015 at 6:52pm by Ian01 »

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame) - NT
Reply #151 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 2:25am

Noting the correspondence with the NT above, I too have dropped them a message.

This follows up on a message sent in September 2014, which had a fairly positive response. It is very disappointing that the necessary actions have not been completed. I believe that the Trust is moving in the right direction, although the steps are faltering and some wrong turns are being taken.

It is not my policy to publish private correspondence (i.e. that which is not specifically marked or approved as being for general publication). This is for a number of reasons, and I recognise that others feel free to behave differently.

If anyone is particularly interested in my exchanges with NT, please drop me an email or PM and I will be happy to share.

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@fairtelecoms (tweets)

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allegro

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Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame)
Reply #152 - Oct 14^th, 2015 at 6:13am

Had a fairly useless reply from a fairly senior manager at NT:

Quote:

David (This is how he addressed me, David is not my name and I would expect to be addressed as Mr xxxx in this sort of correspondence)

Thanks for your note although I totally disagree that we are in breach of the new regulations.

I have retained the 0844 message to the end of the year as a small number of our supporters are still using it and it would appear that some of the old paperwork is in circulation. I understand Fiona has explained why the old number appeared on the “Near You” article, apart from this the new 0345 number appears on all the new paperwork, handbook, letters etc.

These changes were a result of an EU directive in December 2013 which stated that from 13 June 2014 a new set of rules and requirement would be introduced which would replace the distance selling regulations 2000 and off premises (Doorstop) regulations 2008.

Contained within that Directive was the clause that a Telephone number has to be offered to the consumer for any post contract enquiry that is not charged at any more than basic rate.

The clause states:

“Where a business has a telephone line that can be called by its customers relating to contracts entered into by its customers, that phone number cannot charge more than a basic rate, defined as an 01, 02, 03 or mobile number (071-075, 077-079) from 13 June 2014, or it must be free to caller.”

This means that businesses can no longer publish 0845, 0870, 0844 or 0871 for this purpose, meaning that we that we had to change the contact number for all contacts that relate to any existing membership enquiry.

I understand that telephone charges are an emotive subject, but we have tried to adhere to the legislation as best we can, bearing in mind the amount of literature we have had to alter.

regards

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allegro

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Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame)
Reply #153 - Oct 14^th, 2015 at 6:15am

And my further reply to him:

Quote:

Dear Mr xxxxx

Thank you for addressing me by a name that is not one that I use.

Your reply is almost as erroneous as that from xxxxxxxx. Apart from failing to address me correctly (xxxx to my friends, Mr xxxxxx for more more formal contact) and referring to 0345 numbers which I don't think you use you appear to be not fully aware of currrent regulations.

While you are clearly aware of the basic legislation you have not addressed the requirement of correctly indicating charges for 084 numbers. Both you and Ms xxxxx seem to think it's still OK to give the "Charges from BT..." etc wording when it this is now outlawed.

You have also failed to address the greater questions involved. It is laudable that the NT is planning to phase out 08x numbers though of course it should never have used them in the first place. You have had ample notice of the legistaltive and regulatory changes to have completed the removal and /or correctly indicate charges of 084 numbers by the 1/7/15 deadline yet you have failed.

I hope that the NT would like to be seen to adhering to the highest moral and ethical standards. Its actions over 084/087 numbers and your reply clearly indicate that it is not.

Please let me know to whom you formally report on the executive team so that I can write to them accordingly.

Regards

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allegro

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Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame)
Reply #154 - Oct 14^th, 2015 at 6:23am

And his reply. It's now a question of whether it's worth my while drafting a snail mail letter to the Director General of the NT. Complaining not so much about their phone policy as the incompetence and discourtesy of their staff. I feel it would have to start something like: "Dear Dame Helen, It is sad that I have to write to you about a matter that could and should have been adequately handled by your staff..." and followd by something like this in the body of the letter "... All it would have taken is a simple acknowledgement that the NT had got it wrong and were rather late in putting it right....."

Quote:

Mr xxxxx

Firstly, please accept my apologises for the wrong name on my reply, I am not sure why this happened as I would normally not address anyone by their first name unless previously agreed.

Our complaint escalation policy is shown on our website, if you are unhappy with my response please address correspondence to the Director-General, at the address below.

The National Trust
Heelis
Kemble Drive
Swindon
SN2 2NA

regards

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Ian01

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Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame)
Reply #155 - Oct 14^th, 2015 at 10:22am

If the sole purpose of the remaining active NT 084 or 087 numbers is to play an announcement informing callers to hang up and redial the new 034 or 037 number then I haven't got a problem with that. Such an arrangement may need to remain in place for many months - perhaps a full year where people renew annually.

Bonus points if the announcement is free-to-caller. Most telecoms providers can arrange this faciility. This also supposes that all of these old 084 and 087 numbers are no longer advertised anywhere, and that playing the announcement is for the benefit of members who referred to old paperwork when looking for the number.

This is the position that DWP currently finds itself in. As their old 084 and 087 numbers are no longer advertised, all of the issues surrounding the declaration of the Service Charge have also gone away. HMRC have moved to the final stage where dialling any of their old 084 or 087 numbers results in a Number Unavailable tone.

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« Last Edit: Oct 14^th, 2015 at 10:52am by Ian01 »

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allegro Senior Member Offline Posts: 335	Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame) Reply #156 - Oct 15^th, 2015 at 7:29am The NT has many places where 084x numbers are still advertised and without declaration of charges. Such as here on their complaints page: https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/article-1356395773175/ This may also break the laws on treatment of disabled people as the Minicom number is only given as 0844.
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CJT-80 Global Moderator Offline Posts: 1,714 Manchester Gender:	Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame) Reply #157 - Oct 15^th, 2015 at 10:34am You can add to that National Trust Holiday Cottages (from the contact us list provided by National Trust) which NT gives an 0870 number for, and the NTHC website gives an 0344 number for... NTHC also seem to have kept an 0844 number for the brochure line. The mind boggles....
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allegro

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Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame)
Reply #158 - Oct 16^th, 2015 at 6:21am

Looks like the NT web people need to have a have a good trawl through their website to sort out this mess. I'd guess they've done a belated and halfbaked conversion to 03 numbers

In theory they are allowed to use an 0844 number for their brochure line but only if they declare the charges correctly. Which they don't. Otherwise that page has a mix of 03 numbers (good) and 01 numbers marked as "overseas and mobile friendly". Also good, because in a few cases 03 numbers may not be properly connected/charged when calling from overseas. Though irrelevant to say "mobile friendly" thereby perpetuating the myth that 03 numbers can be more expensive than 01/02 under some conditions.

Worst of all is the diability discrimination by retaining 0844 for Typetalk.

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Ian01

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Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame)
Reply #159 - Oct 16^th, 2015 at 8:50am

allegro wrote on Oct 16^th, 2015 at 6:21am:

In theory they are allowed to use an 0844 number for their brochure line but only if they declare the charges correctly. Which they don't.

One point that their marketing people need to be on top of is that if the telephone call to order a brochure incurs a Service Charge, the brochure can no longer be described as being 'free'.

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allegro

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Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame)
Reply #160 - Oct 20^th, 2015 at 10:31am

Shame on Time Out: https://timeout.subscribeonline.co.uk/

While they are allowed to use an 0844 for a sales line they haven't declared the charges. I receive TO by post and the contact number on the wrapper is the same 0844 number. In this case it's a support line and so is not allowed to be 0844.

This is the only alternative number listed for Time Out subs here on SayNo: 0800 0680050

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allegro

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Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame)
Reply #161 - Oct 20^th, 2015 at 10:43am

I have emailed them as follows and received an automated acknowledgement.

Quote:

Dear Sirs

On your contact page https://timeout.subscribeonline.co.uk/contact-us you are using an 0844 number. The same number is also used on the address sheet of my copy of Time Out that has been delivered by post. Use of such numbers for customer support is now illegal.

Under the Consumer Contracts regulations you are not allowed to use 084x and 087x numbers at all for any form of customer support:
http://www.fairtelecoms.org.uk/consumer-contracts-regulations.html

Where such numbers are allowed (sales lines for example) since the 1st of July you have been required to state the call charges wherever 084x and 087x numbers are used. See here for examples:
http://www.fairtelecoms.org.uk/uk-calling-clear-call-rates.html

I hope this is simply an oversight by Time Out and will be corrected very soon.

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allegro

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Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame)
Reply #162 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:13pm

I recently bought some shoes from a Clarks shop. On the till receipt there's 0844 499 1724 without any information on call charges. Googling the number gives the correct branch:

http://www.clarks.co.uk/storelocator?storeid=0000001724

The store locator on their website leads to the same page which does have the correct info on call charges. Whether they are allowed to use an 0844 number is another matter. Sales OK, customer service not OK. On receipt it must be customer service so not OK.

Googling the shop with

clarks finchley phone

gives a normal 020 number. 020 8445 0649

So all a bit inconsistent, as is this page which abuses 0844 but also has ordinary 01 numbers: http://www.clarks.co.uk/contactus

I'm calling into the shop again soon so will remind the manager about inappropriate use of 0844 numbers.

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« Last Edit: Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:15pm by allegro »

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Ian01 Supreme Member Offline Posts: 767	Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame) Reply #163 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 3:52pm Since 13 June 2014, Regulation 41 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 requires an 01, 02, 03 or 080 number for any post sales helpline. In this case, declaration of call costs is irrelevant, they should not be using 084 or 087 numbers.
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allegro

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Re: Hall of Fame (including Hall of Shame)
Reply #164 - Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 8:04am

allegro wrote on Oct 16^th, 2015 at 6:21am:

Looks like the NT web people need to have a have a good trawl through their website to sort out this mess. I'd guess they've done a belated and halfbaked conversion to 03 numbers

In theory they are allowed to use an 0844 number for their brochure line but only if they declare the charges correctly. Which they don't. Otherwise that page has a mix of 03 numbers (good) and 01 numbers marked as "overseas and mobile friendly". Also good, because in a few cases 03 numbers may not be properly connected/charged when calling from overseas. Though irrelevant to say "mobile friendly" thereby perpetuating the myth that 03 numbers can be more expensive than 01/02 under some conditions.

Worst of all is the diability discrimination by retaining 0844 for Typetalk.

The NT has done a big ovehaul of its website. The result is pretty hideous, a triumph of design over substance. The only number I can now find is the main 0344 contact so praise due for belatedly sorting that out. They haven't redone their cottages site (yet?) which still displays the 0844 number for the brochure line. Strongly suspect this is an oversight as the main numbers are 0344.
https://www.nationaltrustholidays.org.uk/request-a-brochure/

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