SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jun 12^th, 2008 at 12:22pm:

I have suggested something similar to this before. My idea doesn't require the amount the SP is paid to be declared, but distinguishes between the "underlying network charge" made by the OCP and the premium, of which the SP takes a cut.

All service providers should say the call is charged at x pence per minute plus a y pence per minute network charge plus connection fee z p.

Thus, y varies between OCPs and makes it far easier for the caller to know how much they are paying. Each OCP says "Network charge for 0844 is 3 pence per minute, network charge for 090 is 10 pence per minute" etc

Dave wrote on Jun 7^th, 2008 at 9:08pm:

To explain how the dispute between the telephone companies has come about and why this is likely to affect changes to 0870, I will first explain what happens when you make a call and how the call charges are split. To recap, the current dispute is between BT and the five main mobile providers (O2, Vodafone, Orange, T-Mobile and 3).

When you make a call from one telephone provider to another, not only must the call be carried from one to the other, but one pays the other, in the same way as you pay your provider when you make (originate) that call.

The telephone company that the caller is with is known as the originating communications provider or OCP. The telephone company that the receiver is with is the terminating communications provider or TCP.

For example, if someone makes a call from a Vodafone mobile to an Orange one, the OCP in this case is Vodafone and the TCP is Orange. If someone on Orange calls someone on Vodafone, then Orange is the OCP and Vodafone the TCP. The same is true of landline providers and any combination when calling from fixed line to mobile and vice versa.

Calls are originated or made from OCPs and terminated with TCPs. The payment an OCP makes to a TCP is known as a termination payment.

The dispute surrounds the amount BT pays the Orange, Vodafone and 3 (the TCPs) for calls made to them from its fixed lines. BT would like to reduce the amount it charges callers and to do this it must reduce the termination payment. These mobile TCPs aren't happy with this.

Different 0870 numbers are provided by different telcos, and they don't accept the new rates BT has proposed it will pay them for calls originated by BT or passed to BT by another OCP for termination on the their networks. For more details, see the Competition Bulletin from Ofcom here.

The Competition Appeals Tribinal's judgement on the dispute between BT and the mobile providers is that Ofcom didn't use a fair method when determining the new rate. We are awaiting the next step and it will not be until this has all been cleared up until the wheels will go into motion to change the call rate of 0870, if ever.

The essence of the "proposals" in this consultation are as follows (see page 19):

Quote:


The first sentence of the first bullet says that all will be resolved and that calls to 0870 from all (and it does say "all") lines will be charged at geographical rate. But the second sentence contradicts this and says that OCPs may charge more, but must comply with "new strict and precise" guidelines.

The truth of the matter is that call charges should be clear, regardless. Quite why it needs a consulation to determine whether price declaration is in the interests of consumers is another matter. The current regulations were introduced two years ago and require clear pricing information for "NTS Calls" (Number Translation Services) and "PRS" (Premium Rate Services) number ranges.

The proposals to reduce 0870 will result in it being removed from the group of numbers officially classed as NTS Calls. This is despite the fact that technically speaking it will be NTS. This means that the regulations will not then apply and will effectively need to be modified so that they do re-apply.

So they don't seem to be "new" as Ofcom would have use believe. Same goes for them being "strict"; some telcos still are happy to use the terms like "local rate" with respect to 0845.

Having given up on sham consultations by OFCOM and Westminster, i think the only way forward is the EU and I have contacted Commissioner Redings team. They are non committal other than confirming we can make representations about big competition issues. I think defective domestic regulation / possible collusion is a big competition issue. Anyway its the only show in town.

I am awaiting FOIA replies from OFCOM re uptake of 0844 etc nos and possible consultation on citizen/consumer interests in relation to OFCOMs duties.
May I pick the collective brains ?
What is the detail behind 'citizens/consumers' referred to by SilentCallsVictim on 11 June?
Has anyone asked directly about OFCOMs relationship with government, the industry and the public? (when I first contacted - I presume- the old OFTEL team just after the change to OFCOM they were open and gung-ho about making 0870 nos also offer a geo number. The subsequent change in policy and culture was marked.)    
How did the EU force EU Roaming charges down?
How does Europe deal with 0844/0870/0871 etc (or equivalent) nos?
How strong is the evidence of collusion/bias?
How reliant on is this website on companies showing geo numbers to call from abroad? ( Last year the Guardian reported Cmr Reding as wanting 0870 etc nos diallable across the EU and I think I have recently seen an 0844 no as an international number?)
Anything else?

Thanks all DF
 

Ofcom admits that CPs and SPs still mislead on 0870 being "national rate":

Quote:

What is Ofcom doing about this?

Well I sadly caused myself quite needless pain and many wasted hours by responding to both these consultations.  Unfortunately I found I could it not keep it down to just a few paragraphs and felt it necessary to spend considerable time slicing through the many elaborate lies used by Ofcom in these documents to justify their and PhonePayPlus's latest plans.

Suffice it to say that they have been left in no doubt that they are not fulfilling their principal duty under Section 3(i) of the Communications Act 2003.

To paraphrase my several pages of comments as follows:-

(a) 0870 changes are a complete joke that totally betray all of Ofcom's previous promises and will have no effect because almost everyone on 0870 will move to 0844 or 0871 in any case.  This will then leave 0870 as a small rump operation for the odd technologically backward burglar alarm dialler or idiots who were persuaded that 0870 gave them a jazzy national image even though they get no revenue share.  And even though there will be no revenue share OCPs (telcos especially mobile cos) will be allowed to charge more than 01/02 ratem, even though they now have no reason to do so.

(b) 0871 proposals are a complete disgusting joke that are all about claiming 0871 is subject to premium rate regulation when there is no ban on call queuing and no requirement to play a message with the cost per minute before the call is connected (traditional premium rate control).  As a result most 0870 numbers can be expected to move to 0871 (for the more greedy companies who think they can't make enough from 0844) making Ofcom's claims to have slain the 0870 dragon even more of a joke than they already are given that your telco can still charge you what they like for 0870 as long as they send you a leaflet with their higher charge for 0870 than 01/02 printed somewhere in it.  Also most consumers won't realise 0871 is premium rate anyway as PhonePayPlus does not require traditional premium rate warnings to be given and 0871 numbers will inevitably be misperceived as National Rate due to the longstanding association of 087 with the National Rate lie.

Perhaps I should have sent just the above response rather than the much longer response I actually sent slating in detail Ofcom cosying up to the telcos and failing to fulfil its principal duty.

bbb_uk wrote on Jun 16^th, 2008 at 4:36pm:


Here, here.

However unfortunately if the last performance of the questioning of Messrs Currie and Richards by the Parliamentary Culture + Business and Enterprise Select Committees a few weeks ago is anything to go by there is precious little hope of that.

A total and utter farce in which half the members of the two committees were absent and most of those there were from the regions (Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) and blathered on about when they could get broadband that was as fast and as cheap as in a large English town centre or if S4C could have money to make a few more programs in Welsh.  Not one of them held Ofcom to account on their postponement of 0870 call price reductions or Ofcom deliberately misleading the press about what it was up to on 0870.  This was in spite of detailed briefing note by myself sent to all the committee's members.

Then to make matters worse as the Ofcom party walked away from the Committee Room down the corridor with me closely in toe (but unbeknownst to them) they were heard laughing with each other about the miserable performance of the MPs, after which one of them loudly exclaimed about Parliament's "Toothless Tigers".  This shows the totally abusive mindset towards Parliamentary accountability of those at the top of Ofcom.

Our only hope would be a complaint through someone's MP that Ofcom has failed to satisfactorily investigate a complaint about its own regulatory failings on 084/7 and that thus that we wished to have the matter investigated by the Parliamentary & Health Service Ombudsman (who you can only approaching by going via your MP).  Or alternatively persuading Madame Viviane Reding and her colleagues at the EU to investigate Ofcom's general failure to abide by EU competition law and price price disclosure and misleading advertising laws.  Ms Reding is already on record as accusing Ofcom of cosying up to the telcos.

I understand why you could not muster the energy to reply to the consultations bbb_uk but I still think it is a pity you did not and that the forum management also did not even promote responding to these consultations by the usual means (a countdown message on the home page and emails to all forum members) as unfortunately Ofcom will simply take this as a sign that we have given up and that they can now do exactly as they please.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jun 16^th, 2008 at 7:29pm:


I could only imagine it being swallowed up by a Pan European telecoms body as being a possible solution.

Unfortunately Ofcom's overpaid staff seem to have been inculcated from the outset by Stephen Carter and his henchmen with a culture of almost supreme contempt for the UK citizen and the UK consumer where Carter, Currie, Richards and co were/are clearly working to a master plan that is supported by the powers be in New Labour and they are unwilling to let any form of negative consumer feedback change their original planned course of action.

The scale of their utter contempt for this saynoto0870 group and consumers in general is demonstrated by the fact that they have never decided to try and take any members of this group permanently in to their confidence by trying to explain to us privately at briefing meetings why they cannot do all we would like them to.  Yet they meet monthly with the telecoms industry at their NTS Focus Group but their only interaction with the consumer is through carefully orchestrated focus groups who are asked carefully spun questions designed to produce only the answers that Ofcom wants to hear.

The content of some of Ofcom's just closed consultation about 0871 PRS regulation is very distressing as much of it is full of slogans claiming that 0871 numbers provide an extensive range of value added consumer services that would not otherwise exist.  Most of its content appears to have been written by some sort of focus group of NTS call centre PR people and the views of the 600+ individuals who responded to the PhonePayPlus (ICSTIS) consultation document have been completely and utterly ignored by Ofcom.  They are not even referred to in the document.   It is hard to feel anything other than that those who work at Ofcom are only interested in promotion and pensions and that anyone who got a job there who was imbued with one iota of conscience that made them stick up for the rights of uk citizens and uk consumers would probably be ushered out of the front door within a matter of days of starting work.