SAYNOTO0870.COM - BBC charge for 0870 is 4ppm ???

Dave

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Re: BBC charge for 0870 is 4ppm ???
Reply #15 - Jun 10^th, 2008 at 4:55pm

NGMsGhost wrote on Jun 10^th, 2008 at 4:45pm:

I haven't seen any front banner ad on this website publicising the consultation or counting down the days to closure or any email from Daniel encouraging us to respond.

I know we all feel all consulted out with Ofcom and ICSTIS and that they never ever listen to what we say but it is still important to send something to show the public are discontented and that Ofcom are ignoring them.

Can Daniel get something out by email to all forum members by Thursday pointing out the closing date for responding is next Monday? Also can a banner to an article with links and counting down be added today or tomorrow?

In the past when this has been done it has linked to some pages on the site giving advice on how to respond. Discussion on these consultations has been small, as you can see from the length of this thread.

A agree with encouraging people to respond as we have done in the past.

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derrick

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Re: BBC charge for 0870 is 4ppm ???
Reply #16 - Jun 18^th, 2008 at 12:45pm

Amongst others I complained to about this was OfCon, I have just received a response, typical useless OfCoN; -

Dear Mr ******

BBC HD trailer

Thank you for contacting Ofcom.

We've noted your concerns about promotions for the BBC's HD services, which directed callers to ring 08700 10 10 10. We understand you felt the reference to calls to that number costing no more than 4 pence per minute from a BT landline was misleading as this would not be the case.

Our understanding is that, while calls to 08700 numbers can be in excess of this cost as you illustrated, companies can negotiate particular rates for individual lines with these prefixes, and on this occasion the BBC will have negotiated a 4 pence per min charge with BT for calls to this line.

Ofcom can investigate complaints about incorrect billing or misleading references to call charges, but given the above, and that we've received no pattern of complaints to indicate consumers have been billed other than as detailed in these promotions, there don't appear to be regulatory grounds to intervene, and we recommend contacting the BBC directly with any feedback on this matter if you have not done so already:

PO Box 1922, Glasgow, G2 3WT
Tel: 08700 100 222 www.bbc.co.uk/complaints

Yours sincerely,

Alistair Hall

Notice the complaints line to the BBC is 0870

And notice OfCon have assumed that "on this occasion the BBC will have negotiated a 4 pence per min charge with BT for calls to this line. "

What an arrogant lump of s*** OfCoN are!

I have replied back forwarding the email from Mr Stock and informing them that they were wrong,(so is OfCoN) and that it has been put right, but not by OfCon but through me.

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« Last Edit: Jun 18^th, 2008 at 12:48pm by derrick »

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: BBC charge for 0870 is 4ppm ???
Reply #17 - Jun 19^th, 2008 at 12:22am

derrick wrote on Jun 18^th, 2008 at 12:45pm:

on this occasion the BBC will have negotiated a 4 pence per min charge with BT for calls to this line.

Offering such an obviously un-substantiated (indeed, false) comment is a disgrace. It demands an apology from Ofcom and an assurance that action has been taken to ensure that no such error is made in future.

Ofcom comes out with quite enough bs, but this is wholly unacceptable.

If it had said "it is possible that the BBC will have negotiated ..." and referred you to your telco and the BBC before coming back to Ofcom if unable to resolve your dispute, after also going through the relevant arbitrator, that would have been a proper response.

Ofcom does not regulate users of telephone services, such as the BBC. It did not need to make any comment at all, unless the complaint had been about the charge actually incurred for calling this number, when the BBC could have been deemed to be an agent of the OCP mis-stating its charges.

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derrick

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Re: BBC charge for 0870 is 4ppm ???
Reply #18 - Jun 19^th, 2008 at 11:55am

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jun 19^th, 2008 at 12:22am:

derrick wrote on Jun 18^th, 2008 at 12:45pm:

on this occasion the BBC will have negotiated a 4 pence per min charge with BT for calls to this line.

Offering such an obviously un-substantiated (indeed, false) comment is a disgrace. It demands an apology from Ofcom and an assurance that action has been taken to ensure that no such error is made in future.

Ofcom comes out with quite enough bs, but this is wholly unacceptable.

If it had said "it is possible that the BBC will have negotiated ..." and referred you to your telco and the BBC before coming back to Ofcom if unable to resolve your dispute, after also going through the relevant arbitrator, that would have been a proper response.

Ofcom does not regulate users of telephone services, such as the BBC. It did not need to make any comment at all, unless the complaint had been about the charge actually incurred for calling this number, when the BBC could have been deemed to be an agent of the OCP mis-stating its charges.

I did reply to Mr Hall yesterday by e-mail and this morning via his voicemail, to which I received the following e-mail; -

Dear Mr ******

Thank you for your e-mail and voicemail.

I understand you are unhappy with our previous response in light of information you have received from the BBC which demonstrates they made an error in the call price quoted in their promotions. Our previous response was on the understanding that the BBC may have negotiated a specific rate for people to call their 0870 number, as is sometimes the case, and at that stage we judged it would be more appropriate for you to contact the BBC directly for more background on any such arrangements.

Obviously this would not preclude us taking up an investigation in the event of evidence that the promotion was misleading, and in light of the information you have since received from the BBC to this effect, I have opened a new case for your complaint, ref: 1-********, which I have escalated for further review and response in due course.

Yours sincerely

:: Alistair Hall

Now I cannot see what they can do now that the "advert" has been corrected, but lets see what he comes up with.

I also asked in my e-mail yesterday and again this morning in my response to his e-mail, seeing as he chose not to answer the question; -

P.S when are you going to stop telcos and others still,(nearly 4 years after the terms were made redundant,) calling 0845/0870 numbers "local and national" respectively?

~ Edited by Dave: Reference number removed

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« Last Edit: Jun 19^th, 2008 at 12:19pm by Dave »

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derrick Supreme Member Offline Posts: 1,124	Re: BBC charge for 0870 is 4ppm ??? Reply #19 - Jun 19^th, 2008 at 12:00pm Just received this from him in reply to my question about 0845/0870 local/national terms; - Dear Mr ****** Thank you for your further e-mail. The comments you highlighted in red in this and previous will be fielded when we respond to the review of your complaint. Yours sincerely
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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: BBC charge for 0870 is 4ppm ???
Reply #20 - Jun 19^th, 2008 at 4:02pm

derrick wrote on Jun 19^th, 2008 at 12:00pm:

The comments you highlighted in red in this and previous will be fielded when we respond to the review of your complaint.

Is Ofcom seriously suggesting that it will investigate and respond to specific complaints about mis-description of the rates for calling 084x and 087x numbers?

If so, would Ofcom be happy for Derrick to publish Mr Hall's email address and the case number, so that members of this forum could present every example that they come across?

I caution all to recognise that Ofcom has no specific statutory powers of regulation over those who use phrases like "local" and "national" rate, unless they are Telco's or acting as their agents - I stand to be corrected on this point if anyone has read the Communications Act 2003 more closely.

If however Mr Hall is prepared to put in work on this, perhaps bluffing the offenders that Ofcom has more powers than it does (a not unfamiliar tactic), then he should perhaps be thanked and congratulated.

derrick wrote on Jun 19^th, 2008 at 11:55am:

Our previous response was on the understanding that the BBC may have negotiated a specific rate

That may indeed be true, but if so, he was in error when he used the phrase: will have negotiated. The later comment could be taken as an admission of the error, as it uses the same phrase with the significant word changed, although there is no apology.

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derrick

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Re: BBC charge for 0870 is 4ppm ???
Reply #21 - Jul 18^th, 2008 at 12:18pm

I have finally received a response and it is typical OfCoN trash; -

BBC HD trailer

Thank you for your email of 19 June 2008, which has been passed to me, as Case Leader, Commercial and Consumer Protection, in the Standards Team.

I have now read all the correspondence to date and note that the BBC has admitted it broadcast erroneous cost information with regard to the 0870 number it promoted.

In his letter dated 16 June 2008, my colleague, Alistair Hall, stated that Ofcom can investigate complaints concerning misleading references to call charges in programmes. While this is generally the case, Ofcom's statutory powers concerning the regulation of the BBC's broadcast output does not extend to the accuracy of such material, which falls within the remit of the BBC Trust
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/).

The memorandum of understanding between Ofcom and the BBC Trust can be found at:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/about/accoun/mou/mou.pdf ;

With regard to your more general query concerning call charge information with regard to 08 numbers, Ofcom has worked with the Committee of Advertising Practice to develop guidelines for advertisers, which recommends that terms such as 'national' and 'local' should not be used. Ofcom has also contributed to similar guidance produced by the Central Office of Information for public sector organisations. We are currently in the process of implementing proposals to repair the linkage between charges for 0870 calls and national calls to geographic numbers and later this year will consider whether to adopt similar measures for 0845.

Thank you for taking the time to contact us.

Yours sincerely

David Burkin
Content and Standards

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irrelevant

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Re: BBC charge for 0870 is 4ppm ???
Reply #22 - Jul 26^th, 2008 at 10:17pm

derrick wrote on Jun 19^th, 2008 at 11:55am:

I also asked in my e-mail yesterday and again this morning in my response to his e-mail, seeing as he chose not to answer the question; -

P.S when are you going to stop telcos and others still,(nearly 4 years after the terms were made redundant,) calling 0845/0870 numbers "local and national" respectively?

I've not been on the board for a bit, so not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but this recent ASA decision is a very useful and clear decision to point anybody at when contacting them about the "local rate" labels, at least on marketing materials. Indeed, it's encouraged me to report a whole series of leaflets from one particular supermarket to them, all of which have "calls charged at local rates" on the bottom, referring to this decision.

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Dave

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Re: BBC charge for 0870 is 4ppm ???
Reply #23 - Jul 27^th, 2008 at 1:44pm

irrelevant wrote on Jul 26^th, 2008 at 10:17pm:

I've not been on the board for a bit, so not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but this recent ASA decision is a very useful and clear decision to point anybody at when contacting them about the "local rate" labels, at least on marketing materials. …

Thanks for that irrelevant, it's very useful. They even say:

Quote:

We therefore considered that describing calls to 0845 numbers as local rate was not only inaccurate and meaningless to the majority of viewers, it could also mislead those who still considered 'local' as synonymous with calling a geographic number.

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