SAYNOTO0870.COM - BBC still using 0845

poppasmurf Junior Member Offline Posts: 55 Bewdley, Worcs Gender:	BBC still using 0845 Nov 16^th, 2008 at 1:14pm The Politics Show on BBC1 in the West Midlands today was still using an 0845 number, and advising that it was a 'local rate' call. I have complained to the Beeb about this. Let's see what response we get.
Back to top	IP Logged

Heinz Supreme Member Offline Posts: 1,362 Essex	Re: BBC still using 0845 Reply #1 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 5:02pm The BBC only announced they were doing away with 0870 numbers - they never made any such statement about 0845 numbers and still have many in use.
Back to top	After years of ignoring govt. guidelines & RIPPING OFF Council Tax payers using 0845 numbers, Essex County Council changed to 0345 numbers on 2 November 2015 IP Logged

poppasmurf

Junior Member

Offline

Posts: 55
Bewdley, Worcs
Gender: male

Re: BBC still using 0845
Reply #2 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 5:11pm

I thought the BBC Trust had agreed that ALL BBC numbers should be 03, and that no 08 numbers should be used. If that's not the case, then it should be.

In the BBC alternative numbers section of this website, I notice that the 0845 numbers for Children in Need this week were changed to the 0345 equivalent, so there must be movement on the 0845 numbers.

Even Feedback on Radio 4 is now using 03 numbers despite its protestations about how necessary 0870 numbers were. Watchdog on BBC1 uses 02, after being the first BBC programme to highlight the unfairness on 08 numbers.

Plus today the BBC in the West Midlands were still using the old 'local rate' speil when giving the number, which was part of my complaint.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 16^th, 2008 at 5:14pm by poppasmurf »

IP Logged

jgxenite Supreme Member Offline Help us to help you - read the instructions!! Posts: 1,454 Gender:	Re: BBC still using 0845 Reply #3 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 9:54pm I think the local stations which originally had 0845 numbers are still using them - Radio Leeds for example.
Back to top	I don't mind helping you with your request as long as you read the instructions! IP Logged

SilentCallsVictim

Supreme Member

Offline

aka NHS.Patient, DH_fairtelecoms

Posts: 2,494

Re: BBC still using 0845
Reply #4 - Nov 16^th, 2008 at 11:57pm

In addressing this matter with the BBC it may be helpful for members to refer to some of the points made in the filmed report section of the media coverage of the issue viewable here.

A journalist highlights the benefits of 03, whilst equating 0870, 0844 and 0845 as unsuitable numbers for particular purposes. For an early morning audience the issue was simplified a little with references only to 0300, use of the term "local rate" and with no distinction between 0844, 0870 and 0845, which are just vaguely grouped together. The essential point, that 03 is normal and cheap, whereas 08xx is revenue sharing and expensive, does however come accross.

Back to top

@fairtelecoms (tweets)

IP Logged

NGMsGhost

Supreme Member

Offline

The Forum Ghost of NonGeographicalMan<b
r />

Posts: 2,720
Surrey, United Kingdom
Gender: male

Re: BBC still using 0845
Reply #5 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:01pm

poppasmurf wrote on Nov 16^th, 2008 at 1:14pm:

The Politics Show on BBC1 in the West Midlands today was still using an 0845 number, and advising that it was a 'local rate' call. I have complained to the Beeb about this. Let's see what response we get.

Firstly please note that this issue was previously discussed in considerable depth in the summer when the BBC started using some 0370 phone numbers in place of 0870 in this thread:-

www.saynoto0870.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1208458341/0

You are indeed correct that they must not call any 0845 numbers "local rate" and this is illegal and a breach of ASA guidance, Trading Standards guidance and they must be told to stop it immediately.

The best way to achieve this is to send an email to michael.stock@bbc.co.uk with a cc copy to Director General, mark.thompson@bbc.co.uk and to Director of Vision, jana.bennett@bbc.co.uk, BBC1 Controller jay.hunt@bbc.co.uk, Controller of Editorial Policy david.jordan@bbc.co.uk and Politics Show presenter, jon.sopel@bbc.co.uk

As Dave and others have said for whatever perverse and illogical reasons of their own (I think mainly it is because the 0500, 0844 and 0845 numbers in use by BBC programs are used by subcontractors who the BBC have decided not to give orders to on phone number use) the BBC has only replaced their 0870 numbers with 0370 and its overall policy on the matter is still in disarray. While they have generally changed to using 0370 instead of 0870 I noticed that their Feedback program last night was quoting another 03 prefix - I think it was 0330 for calling it. They also perversely still use 0500 for BBC Radio Five Live phone ins, even though 0500 costs a bomb from most mobile phones. You might want to point out to Mr Sopel the clear irony of the Politics Show still using a contact number which is covert premium rate and which there is huge public opposition to, not to mention the political (with a small p) inconsistency of some BBC numbers having changed away from the 084/7 ripoff and others not having done so.

Michael Stock their Head of Business and Partnerships was co-ordinating the BBC's policy position on this issue and wrote the paper for their Board that led to the main BBC Information contact number changing to 0370. Below is the last communication I had from him on this subject back in the summer. I see no reason not to publish the email as it amounts to an official BBC statement of policy on their current reasons for using phone numbers rather than a personal communication from Mr Stock to myself.

Quote:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: BBC 0870 change to 0370 numbers
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:53:18 +0100
From: Michael Stock <michael.stock@bbc.co.uk>

I understand your continuing interest in 0870 and also that it may not
be clear to you why the BBC uses different telephone tariffs.

As you know from several emails from the BBC Trust, Programme Editors
and myself, the BBC policy is to completely switch from 0870 to the new
0370 over the summer and the new numbers will start to appear very
shortly. This will benefit a very significant number of the BBC audience
who will be able to call the BBC at the lowest cost.

This change has also been summarised on the BBC website:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/info/contactus/questions.shtml

There is no change to our use of other numbers such as 01/02 for
individual premises, 0800 for helplines, 0844 and 0845 for TV Licensing
and BBC Shop, or 0845 used by Local Radio, although that will be
considered when Ofcom reviews 0845 numbers in the future. On the 0871
point, I was grateful to you for pointing out that some independent
programmes were using this tariff for ticketing and I emailed you on
14th April to say I am following this up which I am doing with
colleagues and PhonePayPlus, the regulator which now covers 0871 use.

Ian Fannon of TV Licensing has replied separately to you but TV
Licensing's decision to use 0844 numbers was based on providing the best
value for money for callers and licence fee payers in general. Calls to
its 0844 numbers cost a maximum of 5p per minute from a BT landline and
an average 3 minute call from a BT landline costs less than a second
class stamp. The BBC has an obligation to keep licence fee collection
costs to a minimum and so it is fairer for those who want to call TV
Licensing to pay for it, rather than being subsidised by all licence fee
payers . If people would prefer not to call, then they can contact TV
Licensing us via the website at www.tvlicensing.co.uk
<http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/>; or write to TV Licensing, Bristol BS98
1TL.

As part of the switch to 0370 I shall ensure that our website
communicates the reasons why BBC uses different telephone tariffs.

Thank you for taking the time to set out your opinions again.

regards

Michael Stock Head of Business & Partnerships
BBC Marketing, Communications & Audiences

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:22pm by NGMsGhost »

<div style=

IP Logged

jrawle

Supreme Member

Offline

Posts: 708
Didcot, Oxfordshire
Gender: male

Re: BBC still using 0845
Reply #6 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:14pm

NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:01pm:

The best way to achieve this is to send an email to michael.stock@bbc.co.uk with a cc copy to Director General, mark.thompson@bbc.co.uk and to Director of Vision, jana.bennett@bbc.co.uk, BBC1 Controller jay.hunt@bbc.co.uk, Controller of Editorial Policy david.jordan@bbc.co.uk and Politics Show presenter, jon.sopel@bbc.co.uk

Good grief! What a bloated organisation with all those levels of management. No wonder that can't keep tabs on output, allowing incidents such as that concerning Messrs Brand and Ross.

Back to top

IP Logged

NGMsGhost Supreme Member Offline The Forum Ghost of NonGeographicalMan<b r /> Posts: 2,720 Surrey, United Kingdom Gender:	Re: BBC still using 0845 Reply #7 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:21pm jrawle wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:14pm: Good grief! What a bloated organisation with all those levels of management. No wonder that can't keep tabs on output, allowing incidents such as that concerning Messrs Brand and Ross. Why do you think your licence fee is so hight.
Back to top	<div style= IP Logged

NGMsGhost

Supreme Member

Offline

The Forum Ghost of NonGeographicalMan<b
r />

Posts: 2,720
Surrey, United Kingdom
Gender: male

Re: BBC still using 0845
Reply #8 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 11:10pm

Well I sent the below off to Michael Stock at the BBC. It will be interesting to see what they have to say on the matter:-

Quote:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Politics Show 0845 Price Description Breaching ASA Rules & BBC Editorial Policy
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 23:01:37 +0000
To: michael.stock@bbc.co.uk
CC: mark.thompson@bbc.co.uk, jana.bennett@bbc.co.uk, jay.hunt@bbc.co.uk, david.jordan@bbc.co.uk, politicsshow@bbc.co.uk, jon.sopel@bbc.co.uk

Dear Mr Stock,

Further to our previous discussions on this matter (in your position as Head of Business & Partnership at the BBC) and the previous policy decision taken by the BBC Executive Board during the summer of this year (following its discussion of a paper that I believe you had personally prepared for it) over its phone number use I have been very concerned to learn from another member of the www.saynoto0870.com discussion forum that today's (Monday 17th November 2008) edition of the Politics Show in your West Midlands area (and probably in fact on a nationwide basis) is not only still using an 0845 phone number for contacting it (as current BBC editorial policy currently regrettably still allows it to do despite the widespread adoption of 03 prefixed numbers included in fixed rate and mobile phone calling plans by many other parts of the BBC last summer and also more recently) but is also misdescribing the cost of calling the number as being "local rate" contrary to longstanding BBC policy about the correct cost description of calls to these numbers and contrary to several Advertising Standards Authority guidances on the correct price misdescription of 0845/7 numbers and also a recent bulletin about the correct price description of these numbers by the Trading Standards Institute. Trading Standards Institute guidance 180805 in fact makes it abundantly clear to trading standards officers that misdescribing calls to 0845 numbers as being at "local rate" is likely to constitute a criminal offence as a "misleading price indication" under the terms of the Consumer Protection Act 1987. See www.eastsussex.gov.uk/business/tradingstandards/detail.aspx?ref=180805&class=Eng...; It may also be helpful to look at the ASA guidances at www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Stop+the+call+confusion.htm, www.asa.org.uk/cap/news_events/news/2005/Hanging+on+the+telephone+on+and+on+and+... and www.asa.org.uk/cap/advice_online/ad_alerts/Advertising+0845+and+087+numbers.htm,

Since the BBC's management still does not seem to be adequately communicating the correct position regarding phone number use and particularly phone call cost description for those greedy and inconsiderate production companies working for the BBC who still insist on still using covert premium rate 0844, 0845 or 0871 numbers for the public to contact them can you tell me what steps you and your management colleagues at the BBC will now be taking to ensure that rogue program makers for the BBC do not continue to misdescribe the cost of making telephone calls to the BBC, thereby potentially breaking the law while they do so.

I have to say it would be much more straightforward had the BBC banned the use of 084/7 prefixed numbers by all its programs and your position that you are still waiting for some kind of guidance on 0845 numbers from Ofcom is simply not credible when Ofcom does not have any plans to give any such guidance but the Central Office of Information (see www.coi.gov.uk/documents/gcc-third-edition.pdf ) and Sir David Varney's report - Service Transformation - a better deal for citizens and businesses, a better deal for the taxpayer (see Chapter 7 of his report at www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/4/F/pbr06_varney_review.pdf) - both indicate that public sector organisations concerned about minimising cost barriers to contacting them by the general public should move to using 03 prefixed numbers or back to geographic phone numbers (commencing 01 and 02) for contacting them due to the adverse cost implications for citizens of calling numbers commencing 084/7, especially from mobile phones.

I have to say I find it particularly ironic that The Politics Show of all your shows is still not tuned in to the huge level of public opposition to the use of these 084/7 numbers, as embodied by the alternative database and discussion forum to avoid calling these numbers to be found at www.saynoto0870.com

I look forward to your comments on this matter.

Regards,

Back to top

<div style=

IP Logged

SilentCallsVictim

Supreme Member

Offline

aka NHS.Patient, DH_fairtelecoms

Posts: 2,494

Re: BBC still using 0845
Reply #9 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 11:29pm

NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:21pm:

Why do you think your licence fee is so high

Sadly, or inevitably, an organisation that is measured on anything more than a simple financial bottom line return to shareholders requires management decisions that are more complex and thereby perhaps requires more resource. That is not to justify the excesses that doubtless exist in the BBC and other public sector organisations, however it goes some way towards explaining why there must be a difference.

The size of the BBC overhead is also increased by the fact that viewers and listeners value the sense of independence that each topical section (e.g. News, Sport, Wildlife), channel and regional operation has and portrays in its output. This also goes some way to explain why only one centralised block of telephone numbers were involved in the 0870 / 0370 switchover.

It appears that 03 is now the standard, as demonstrated by Pudsey, which will increasing be adopted as new numbers are selected. Five Live needs a strong listener-driven reason to change from its well-established and (apart from cost issues) highly suitable 0500 numbers. Similarly, local BBC stations and independent production companies each need to be pursuaded to make the changes that are needed.

It is arguable as to whether this is best forced from the centre. In some cases, viewers / listeners will have to be seen to be in favour before a change could be made.

(I have previously commented on publication of emails in this forum. I completely agree with the comment that the message from Michael Stock represents a useful clarification of general BBC policy, rather than a personal communication, and is therefore quite properly published here.)

P.S. This reply was drafted and posted before reading reply #8.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 17^th, 2008 at 11:32pm by SilentCallsVictim »

@fairtelecoms (tweets)

IP Logged

NGMsGhost

Supreme Member

Offline

The Forum Ghost of NonGeographicalMan<b
r />

Posts: 2,720
Surrey, United Kingdom
Gender: male

Re: BBC still using 0845
Reply #10 - Nov 17^th, 2008 at 11:48pm

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 11:29pm:

P.S. This reply was drafted and posted before reading reply #8.

And do you see anything wrong with the contents of my Post #8 given that my email to Mr Stock was atually circulated to everyone involved in making The Politics Show (an enormous list so there wasn't room to include them all in the posted version of the email) as a general lobbying point about the unsuitability of the use of this 0845 number for this program and was not the disclosure of some highly confidential off the record discussion with Mr Stock.

I suppose you will object to my disclosure that Mr Stock prepared the original position paper for the BBC Board on 03 numbers. However as Mr Stock also deliberately misled me about the nature of the changes the BBC were making on 03 (giving me the impression that this would be a corporation wide implementation of 03) I see no great reason to hide that fact, especially as the BBC's current position on phone number use is still mind blowingly inconsistent and incoherent.

As to BBC Radio Five Live and its 0500 number the reason for change is obvious. Namely that landline callers have their call entirely paid for by other licence payers while mobile callers pay through the nose and have the call excluded from bundled minutes due to the anomalous charging status of so called Freephone numbers from mobiles. Use of the 0500 code is also daft as 0500 is not widely recognised by the public as even being a Freephone number as Radio 5 Live's 0500 is one of the very few 0500 Freephone numbers that are still in use.

The BBC needs to be consistent and use 03 numbers for everything. Otherwise it is seen to be behaving irrationally and inconsistently.

Back to top

<div style=

IP Logged

NGMsGhost

Supreme Member

Offline

The Forum Ghost of NonGeographicalMan<b
r />

Posts: 2,720
Surrey, United Kingdom
Gender: male

Re: BBC still using 0845
Reply #11 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 12:10am

poppasmurf wrote on Nov 16^th, 2008 at 1:14pm:

The Politics Show on BBC1 in the West Midlands today was still using an 0845 number, and advising that it was a 'local rate' call. I have complained to the Beeb about this. Let's see what response we get.

I have just tried skimming through the West Midlands edition on BBC IPlayer and I can't see any obvious place where the 0845 number is now given. But I haven't watched it from end to end.

Have they perhaps now edited out the 0845 price reference realising it is wrong? The local West Mids section presenter mentions calls and emails on the incinerator issue etc coming in from viewers but I can't see where the number is actually given out with the local rate price blurb etc. Can you tell me where in the program I should be looking. I thought I might fall asleep if I had to watch the whole of Alistair Darling's interview. Wink

A Google search for ["politics show" phone 0845 "local rate"] brings up a number of hits for The Politics Show but unfortunately the BBC has now removed the content from their website. So it proves they clearly did do it but they now seem to be trying to cover their tracks. I bet they have edited the Iplayer versions of the program to remove the "Local Rate" reference Angry

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 18^th, 2008 at 12:53am by NGMsGhost »

<div style=

IP Logged

NGMsGhost

Supreme Member

Offline

The Forum Ghost of NonGeographicalMan<b
r />

Posts: 2,720
Surrey, United Kingdom
Gender: male

Re: BBC still using 0845
Reply #12 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 2:33am

OK I caught Michael Collie doing the dirty deed on the West Midlands edition of the show neatly buried at 43 minute and 8 seconds in the broadcast at www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00fmykf/The_Politics_Show_West_Midlands_16112008/

And he does say very glibly and smugly indeed that "its a local rate call" regarding their 0845 number.

If you want to complain to the guilty man himself its michael.collie@bbc.co.uk

Program Producer - joanna.carr@bbc.co.uk
Director - ian.durant@bbc.co.uk
Editor - gavin.allen@bbc.co.uk

Now to watch all the other regional editions at 43 minutes and 8 seconds in to the program..............

Well nothing at that same time in to any of the other editions and I don't have time to wade through them all the way. I wonder if Michael Collie's 0845 "local rate" comments were scripted or if he just ad libbed them.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 18^th, 2008 at 2:52am by NGMsGhost »

<div style=

IP Logged

SilentCallsVictim

Supreme Member

Offline

aka NHS.Patient, DH_fairtelecoms

Posts: 2,494

Re: BBC still using 0845
Reply #13 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 3:16am

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 11:29pm:

P.S. This reply was drafted and posted before reading reply #8.

On now reading reply #8, I find that there is nothing further to add. Certainly nothing to object to. The points are well made and fairly argued.

NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 11:48pm:

The BBC needs to be consistent and use 03 numbers for everything. Otherwise it is seen to be behaving irrationally and inconsistently.

Sadly, for the reasons given in my previous post, I believe that the move towards consistency in telephone numbers may be slow and changes may not be able to be pressed from the centre. Most of us would oppose centrally imposed consistency in all things across the BBC, no matter how rational this may be. Unfortunately this must apply in cases where we would wish for it, as well as in cases where we would not.

I am only an occassional listener to Radio Five Live phone-ins, but I might guess the reaction from contributors on being told that corporate policy had forced a change to an unfamiliar telephone number that perhaps did not include the name of the channel and the two frequencies on which it was broadcast and would be more expensive for some callers. The producers of such programmes would have to be convinced of the need for a change so that they could ensure that the reasons could be properly explained to listeners and be ready to take the flak that inevitably arises when anything is changed.

Changing from "freephone" and 0845 numbers to 03 is probably the right thing to do in many cases. It is however difficult because some callers would end up paying more, even though others would pay less and 03 provides a much fairer solution overall. It is right to press for the change, but it must be recognised that the arguments are not all in one direction.

Perhaps the saynoto0870 campaign would like to put forward a representative to discuss this with callers to the Victoria Derbyshire show.

Back to top

@fairtelecoms (tweets)

IP Logged

poppasmurf

Junior Member

Offline

Posts: 55
Bewdley, Worcs
Gender: male

Re: BBC still using 0845
Reply #14 - Nov 18^th, 2008 at 9:35am

NGMsGhost wrote on Nov 18^th, 2008 at 12:10am:

poppasmurf wrote on Nov 16^th, 2008 at 1:14pm:

The Politics Show on BBC1 in the West Midlands today was still using an 0845 number, and advising that it was a 'local rate' call. I have complained to the Beeb about this. Let's see what response we get.

I have just tried skimming through the West Midlands edition on BBC IPlayer and I can't see any obvious place where the 0845 number is now given. But I haven't watched it from end to end.

Have they perhaps now edited out the 0845 price reference realising it is wrong? The local West Mids section presenter mentions calls and emails on the incinerator issue etc coming in from viewers but I can't see where the number is actually given out with the local rate price blurb etc. Can you tell me where in the program I should be looking. I thought I might fall asleep if I had to watch the whole of Alistair Darling's interview. Wink

A Google search for ["politics show" phone 0845 "local rate"] brings up a number of hits for The Politics Show but unfortunately the BBC has now removed the content from their website. So it proves they clearly did do it but they now seem to be trying to cover their tracks. I bet they have edited the Iplayer versions of the program to remove the "Local Rate" reference Angry

Yes, the offending item was in the West Midlands 'opt out', which was only broadcast in the West Midlands area, not nationwide.

Just to correct one minor error in an above post, the show was on Sunday, not Monday.

And, as a regular listener to Radio Five Live, I too would support the campaign to get it to change from 0500 to 03, or at least offer the listener the choice.

Back to top

IP Logged