Hey - we're not all out to rip off the public. A non geographic number has uses other than generating cash for the recipient of the call. I'm a technician for a housing association (a charity) that has an 0870 number and an ordinary 01xx number. The 0870 number is for the exclusive use of our customers and when dialled the call will be transferred to the first of the available 20 ready trained agents waiting to take your call from early morning till late at night and when we close our call centre it will provide the customer with an emergency number to call. Yes, calls cost over 4p per minute to our customers but we make nothing from that it all goes to the telecomms provider. We know that not all our customers can afford to pay 4p per minute particularly for a complex call and we always offer to call customers back after initial contact if that's what they want. Contrast that to the advice given on here to our customers to avoid the 4p cost and dial our 01xx number, which happens to be our main business contact number. That call goes to a single receptionist who's only on duty 9am to 5pm and handling all the inbound business calls, our customers may have to wait minutes to have their call answered and then end up on the end of the queue of calls going into our customer service agents. Call 01 out of hours and a message will inform you that the office is now closed - no way of being passed through to the call centre; no way of being given an emegency number to dial. In other words you will save 4p but you will receive terrible customer service - a painful consequence for those of us dedicated to planning and providing the best customer service we can.

So provider123 why on earth did you pick the 0870 number if you make nothing from it? I'm sure it wasn't to ber generous to your telcom provider. Are you sure you do not get a better deal on your telecom costs even if you don't get a refund per minute per call? If not then why on earth do it? Why force your customers to pay extra for no reason? You could have picked an alternative to the 0870 and had the same facilities.

You state your customers can save 4p by calling the switchboard number, but of course the cost is not 4p. If calling form a payphone or PAYG mobile which I assume is more likely for those customers of a housing association (who are probably those least able to afford the calls) the cost can be anythin upto 40p.

Oh and that is not 4p or 40p for the call but 4p or 40p PER MINUTE!

So a jolly expensive call then.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Dec 5^th, 2008 at 4:24pm:


So you think that customers get enhanced customer service do you SCV by having to pay for the covert premium cost of an 0870 call at up to 40p per minute on a mobile phone that would have come out of their bundled minutes had the call been to 01 or 02.  My experience says not and that I am always in long calls to abusive call centres on 084/7 who make callers pay for their call statistics to be free and for their lower switchboard maintenance cost or subsidised line rental and all the other little side benefits that 0870 call centre abusers receive.  The reality is that alternative 01/02 numbers listed on this website get through to a call centre more quickly 90%+ of the time.  Frequently they also bypass the lengthy and usually wholly unnecessary IVR menus (they only count call type before dumping you back to only one single call taking team) designed to ramp up call time and increase earnings for the telco providing the 084/7 number or the call centre.

All to the alleged benefits of elaborate routing and enhanced call statistics this gentleman no doubt claims are only available only on 0870 numbers all these things are now available on 03 numbers where his customers would then get their calls out of bundled inclusive minutes on landline and mobile phones.  The only difference is that the call centre and not the customer now has to pay for the extra benefits they are currently getting as kickbacks from their telecoms provider if they use 0870.  0845 numbers are also not as expensive from landlines as 0870 (although there is sadly no difference on mobile phones or payphones) so why does this person think he must have an 0870 number.  I really can't believe this absolutely card carrying brain washed and clearly very poorly informed member of the 084/7 call centre abusing industry can come on here and still spout this utter rubbish.  Has he not read any of the preceding posts in the forum.  Clearly he must always believe his company's own spinning press releases quite uncritically no matter how dishonest they are.  Also 0870 calls cost 7p to 10p per minute plus a connection charge of up to 7p so where does this person get their 4p per minute from?

Quote:


Rubbish SCV.  Did you not attend a meeting with some representatives of the NHS where Tanllan previously clearly identified that all the so called benefits of 084/7 could be offered on 01/02 numbers, although some alteration of telephone hardware would have been needed to achieve this.  We all know that the real reason 084/7 is popular is because telcos discount the cost of other related services to the client (line rental, swithboard equipment cost and maintenance) if the call centre allow a hidden charge to be imposed on their callers using by 0870.  How does the Foreign & Commoweath Office manage to run its large switchboard distributing calls to embassies etc all over the world entirely on a geographic London number for instance I wonder.  And how do all Nationwide and John Lewis branches seem to cope perfectly well on 01/02 numbers.  Also the London Albert Hall has a large call centre to sell its tickets and this still manages to use an 020 number for all its calls.  But some people are still duped in to believing you must use 084/7 numbers to get these facilities.  This gentleman even says his lovely 0870 number gives you another number (perhaps a mobile) to call out of hours.  But excuse me can't an answering machine or electronic voicemail system also do that.  He should at least be saying it can redirect the call automatically to try to justify the extra expense to the caller.

Quote:


I repeat that 084/7 numbers do not offer better service.  It is a stock lie told by the abusers who run them.  Try the alternative geographic number listed for Sky on this website for instance and you will find you get through in a tenth of the time of the official 0844 phone number.

Perhaps one should point provider123 to the RSPCA (another charity) who used to use an 0870 phone number but have now changed to an 03 prefixed phone number that costs the caller no extra to call and is part of all landline and mobile call packages (but still offers all those lovely call direction facilities and call stats provider123 says he cannot do without) due to public unhappiness about 0870.  See www.rspca.org.uk

Or even more recently another long standing charitable 0870 abuser - The Disasters Emergency Committee - replaced its frequently criticised 0870 phone number with an 0370 number phone number.  See www.dec.org.uk

We long thought that the DEC were beyond hope with getting the message on 0870 but in fact quite clearly all the many complaints they received from members of this forum and other donors to their causes must have got to them.  Note that the DEC also now only uses London 020 numbers for their press office and for their line with further queries about donations to them.  Not an 084/7 number in sight on their website any more.

See www.dec.org.uk/about/contact_us.html

So if the RPSCA and the DEC can switch away from an 0870 number to 0300 or 0370 provider123 then why can't your charitable organisation?

Yes but...

None of that would be possible had BT been privatised and deregulated. Everyone coped perfectly well before premium rate calls and it's very easy to justify their use after the event. Yours may be in a good cause but travel companies (the original culprits in many cases when it was 0990) and the government departments etc do it simply to make cash at our expense.

I don't know about BT rates as I haven't used it for years but cable charges 8-10p a minute for 0870 calls, 10p for 0871 and 7p for 0845 all the time. Considering 0845 was created when BT charged more for national calls and companies used it to save people money changed years ago those reasons are long gone and is now the same scam whatever 08- number we use, apparently even the 'free' ones now since mobiles now charge for them (they didn't when I got my first one).

It's simply a moral decision by the government to allow excess profit making and normally we only pay for goods and services we have actually chosen to buy, not simply for communication on top of the existing price you would normally pay. It's only one step left from allowing companies to make a call and let the receiver pay, they already do this in America for mobiles so not even a fantasy. Then I could set up a company, cold call 1000 people a day who hung up and make a few hundred a week. Anywhere else that would be called robbery but if they make it legal then anyone can simply clear money out from innocent people without having to do any work for it. Is this the sort of country any of you want to live in?

Swings and roundabouts then as BT got rid of the off peak flat rate making an hour's call escalate from 5p to I think 60p. We still have that on cable so at least if they try and get that back on 0845 you don't use them nearly as much but have no choice at all on BT so they remain getting my two fingers. And why anyone on BT still pays them for international calls when every firm and it's dog now let you call for a fraction from the same line without buying a card beats me.

NGMsGhost wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 5:28pm:

Whether or not that is BT's intention, there is no question that is having exactly this effect. From a service provider's perspective it is tricky to understand the true situation with 0845 numbers, because BT Retail appears to be placing these calls to other networks at a loss.

Our OP invited us to consider the position of a service provider with a 0870 number, which is much more straightforward. All callers on all networks pay a premium to call this number. Whatever the alleged benefits that a service provider may see as being provided by use of a non-geographic number, it is callers who are paying for them, if a revenue sharing range is selected.

I have always argued that it is for the provider to justify to callers the cost that it chooses to impose on them. This applies to private businesses, public companies, charities and public sector organisations. The latter may find such a justification difficult or perhaps impossible.


Many charities would claim that they have no other way of funding the advanced telephony features that are deployed. If so, then the only way forward is to make the additional cost to callers totally clear, so that they know what they are paying for and why. Without such an honest and direct declaration the allegation of "Rip-off" is valid. For a non-profit making organisation there is no difference between income and subsidised cost. Some charitable organisations would not think it appropriate to use money paid by telephone callers as income or subsidy.

Unless it is cheaper to deploy necessary additional facilities on a geographic number, the best approach is to look for a good deal on a 03 number. Suggestion have been posted previously.

Maybe your charity doesn't get a cut from the calls, but did your telecoms provider supply your telephone equipment instead?