I do appologise if this point has been made before, I have not at the moment got time to read through all postings on this subject.  I do not understand in detail how the non-geographic numbering system works, only that it costs a lot more to use.  From my interest in this site I have gleaned that BT appear to control the cost of non-geo numbers, presumably because part of a call to such numbers is accessed over the BT system, although I am not clear on this.  If this is the case it would appear that they have an unfair advantage over other telephone providers and are able to waive charges to 0845/0870 numbers.  Other telecoms providers are not in this position and perhaps this should be reported to the Competition Commission.  (Is this another organisation similar to Ofcon?)  I am also unsure  how revenue share on 0845/0870 will be paid?  Will BT absorb these costs, if not who will retain these numbers? A swift exit to 0844/0871 appears guaranteed.

Yep, just had the same e-mail, (and like you I never use them for chargeable calls); -


"If you sometimes make calls outside of your Virgin Media Talk package, from 3rd February 2009 there will be some changes to the way these calls are charged.

Daytime calls – if you make calls from 6am to 6pm to UK landlines (numbers beginning 01, 02 and 03), from 3rd February they’ll cost 4.4p per minute.


Evening and weekend calls – calls to UK landlines (numbers beginning 01, 02 and 03) outside of your included evening and weekend calls, will also be charged at 4.4p per minute.


International calls – these rates are also changing. For example, a daytime call to France will now cost 32.3p per minute.


0845 and 0870 numbers – calls to 0845 numbers will be charged at 6.85p per minute, with calls to 0870 numbers costing 9.79p per minute. [highlight]The connection charge for both these types of numbers will now be 9.79p.[/highlight]

Just so you know, the connection charge for any chargeable calls you make (excluding calls to 0845 and 0870 numbers, which are listed above, and premium rate numbers) will now be 7.82p.

Don’t forget…
These price changes only affect calls that you make outside of your call package. Calls included in your Talk plan aren’t chargeable for the first 59 minutes. So, if you've got more to catch up on after that, just hang up and redial the person you're calling to keep chatting for the next 59 minutes. Simple!

Kind regards

The Virgin Media team


P.S. VAT… we’re onto it!
The new VAT rate of 15% has been applied to all our new call rates. To find out more about what the VAT reduction means for you, just check out the Customer Zone."

This change by Virginmedia is, in fact, being made with exactly the same purpose as that by BT - to encourage more customers to subscribe to inclusive packages.

Although the phrase "will be charged" is used in relation to 0845 and 0870, these charges have not changed since the VAT adjustment in December. As predicted, Virginmedia has not been able to respond to the move by BT as it suffers the full cost of supporting the revenue share on these numbers.

---

The breakeven point for the XL (anytime) package is only 15 standard landline calls a month, assuming an average duration of 10 minutes, or 26 with an average of 5 minutes. When comparing with BT, it should be noted that those with cable TV have their telephone line rental including in their TV subscription.

There are no announced changes to the "Call Anywhere" packages which enable packages of call minutes to mobile, revenue sharing and standard landline numbers to be pre-paid at the follow rates: 200 @ 4.5p, 400 @ 4.25p, 800 @ 3.625p.

---

There are two relevant changes in respect of non-geographic numbers.

1. Presumably the increase, from 7p to 8p (disregarding the temporary VAT decrease), in the standard connection charge will apply to calls to 0844 numbers. These are (obviously) not included in the packages and so this is a simple price rise for everyone (including those who call their GPs on these numbers).

2. As more customers are drawn into subscribing to the inclusive packages (with BT also), the differential cost of calling revenue sharing numbers increases. Apart from any absolute increase, this also increases what BT refers to as the "sting" felt when calling revenue sharing numbers (- BT has only removed it for package subscribers).

It is this "sting" that is the issue behind the campaign, and it is getting sharper.

bbb_uk wrote on Jan 14^th, 2009 at 6:16pm:

The connection charge for 0845 and 0870 is not being changed tomorow.

I agree with the point about the excessive level of surcharge, which applies to other providers as well. Although the impact is seen together, there are two quite separate points here.

The first, which I focus on, is the use of revenue sharing numbers causing callers to incur some degree of additional cost to the benefit of the person called. That is unacceptable in many situations (e.g. the NHS, public services in general and in commerce when undeclared) whatever the level of the surcharge. The point of principle remains unchanged no matter how much the level may fall.

The second point is that many operators appear to be profiteering by having surcharges well in excess of the amount paid over to the call receiver. In a competitive market, prices for the most-used services will be cut to the bone, whereas prices for items less commonly used as comparitors are not under the same pressure. One may find innumerable examples of this in other markets. I cannot say how far this argument could be used as a defence against allegations of profiteering on calls to revenue sharing numbers, as my understanding of the economics of the industry is not up to it.

My gut feel is that there probably is some profiteering, however I focus my campaigning efforts on the first point, as I see it as a relatively "easy win". The second is more difficult and can be wrongly confused with the first.

This is taken from the current information shown about BT's Together call plans at:-

www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/displayCategory.do;JSESSIONID_ec...

Quote:


So it appears that aside from zapping up the minimum connection fee for chargeable calls to 12p per call to pay for "free" 0845 and 0870 calls that BT is also making its customers pay for it by increasing line rental by another 9.5% (98p) per month.

Yet as usual Ofcom sits there and does nothing and assures us that BT is not behaving anti competitively

Dave wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 10:42pm:


Yes but do you think either the media or the government departments who still use 084/7 will ever understand this based on the way the media just basically fully wrote up BT's glossy PR spin on this matter with very little in the way of any analytical or perceptive commentary about what BT was actually up to.

Dave wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:49pm:


But other than ask the same old Parliamentary questions those worthy backbenchers don't seem to be getting anywhere as the scammers actually seem to enjoy covert yet highly active support from both ministers and the civil servants who entered in to these ripoff deals.

Dave wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 11:10pm:


Because the deviousness of the scams and the cynicism of those who run them in endlessly changing the goal posts to avoid the scams being closed down still annoys me intensely and repeatedly.  Also if you will recall I was one of the very earliest people in the UK to spot this scam back in the late 1990s (I believe I spotted it along with dorf long before you ever took an interest in such matters as on your own admission you only became aware of the issue when BT itself stopped charging 0845 and 0870 calls at local and national rate for BT Standard customers) and corresponded with both the CEO of BT and the CEO of OFTEL about it.  I thought I would be pushing at an open door with the regulators to bring the anomalous charging of what were then 0990 and 0345 numbers to an end only to discover that the regulators were in bed with the telecoms industry as they have remained ever since.  The abusive attitude of senior personnel at OFTEL on the matter and their total contempt for the consumer was a very rude shock to me at the time.

So long as the telco scammers enjoy the clear tacit support of the regulators and of government ministers (many of whom have chums running some of the biggest 084/7 abusing companies) then I fear that the tremendous and commendable efforts invested in the campaign, by both you and SCV for instance, will only achieve very modest actual returns.  If the political establishment was on our side, rather than resisting us all the way, then we would have swept these establishment endorsed telecoms scams away a very long time ago.  The situation with 084/7 is the same sad situation as with Equitable Life pensioners.  The moral highground is on their side but sadly New Labour ministers are not.  And like 084/7 the latest apparent concession to Equitable Life pensioners is largely just a hollow New Labour sham that will not lead to any compensation payments for 95% of them.  It is yet more New Labour playing for time to appear to be listening while doing nothing.

Also have I not responded to many Ofcom consultations and not also researched a fair few alternate numbers and added them to this website.  It is not as though I only complain about the scams but never take any action against them.

Also where were you to be found Dave when the time came to help Derrick at the Information Tribunal I wonder?  And where was Daniel to be found?  In fact where is Daniel ever to be found other than collecting his monthly cheque from GrabAGrand and other such sites for the latest set of monthly click thru ad revenue?