So this site exists to replace NGN (Non Geo Graphic) numbers with their Geographic (Landline) alternatives because of the "high call costs" and the fact the suppliers and end companies are "making a profit" from them.  Well for starters this is a free market economy incase you hadn't realised, and to be fair the cost of NGN's are not that high to call.  For example an 0844 number costs about 5p per minute - hardly breaking the bank now is it?

But wait.... this 5p per minute cost is outrageous isn't it!?! We must do something about it, because we can't have people actually paying for their phone calls now can we.  By using this site it's actually damaging the telecoms industry because it means networks and suppliers are not getting the traffic they once were.

Furthermore when you call your insurance company on an 0870 or 0844 number they probably do indeed receive a cut.  Did you ever wonder where this money went?  No?  Well you all wanted cheap car insurance - so it goes to subsidise policies, the same with banks, airlines and many other companies.  Due to your own short sightedness you will end up paying more on your premiums, bank charges and air fares because you are denying these companies an additional revenue stream used to offset and subsidise costs - well done to you all!

Due to the constant bleeting and moaning from the general public, OFCOM has reduced the costs of 0870 numbers to that of a geographic number - so it won't cost anymore to call.  Again, well done, congratulations on ruining a perfectly good and legigimate industry.  Now that you have achieved success on your "no to 0870" crusade, where will you go next?  0871, 0844, 09 premium, bank charges, airport tax, council tax, line rentals - when are you going to stop?

Don't you realise there is no such thing as a "free lunch" and by attempting to get one you're leeching off legitimate businesses and costing jobs?  People who work in the telecoms industry and PEOPLE, REAL PEOPLE with families to support.  Yet for a few pence saving on your calls you are quite happy to increase direct charges for services (see above re: insurance costs) and quite happily put people out of work for your own greed and selfishness.

I doubt this message will get past a moderator because I dare say they won't like having such a post on their site, but if it does - discuss.  Try and see things from the other side, and realise this industry supports families and children across the UK.  During this difficult time, the last thing we need is more jobs going to the wall for the sake of a couple of phone calls.

This site is a disgrace and should be shut down.

Your own short sightedness will end up costing YOU more in the long run, and also the people who are trying to make an honest living and support themselves through this difficult time in the telecoms industry.  We're not all giants like BT and Vodafone, some of us are small companies struggling to survive - and this site is not helping one little bit.

ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 3:11pm:

I see two main objectives:

1. To make everyone aware that all who use these numbers are deriving subsidy from all callers. Whether this is through the use of revenue payments directly to the party receiving the call or purely reflected in a reduction in the receiver's telephone service charges is irrelevant.

If companies wish to operate on these "premium" revenue sharing numbers, then so be it. The truth is that they are charging their customers. This is a matter of principle rather than a matter of opinion.

2. Many on here object to being charged in this way full stop. This is therefore subjective.


Please do not convolute these two reasons for saying no to 0870.


ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 3:11pm:

The market for 084 and 087 numbers is undoubtedly driven by the recipients who use them. The telephone providers that allow calls to be made (that general consumers use) must pay higher "wholesale" charges for these numbers. It is not surprising that these are reflected in retail charges.


ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 3:11pm:

You are clearly one of those telephone providers who choose to hide the fact that you receive around 6.5 pence per minute when someone calls one of your 0870 numbers. Had this been on a geographical number starting 01 or 02 or a new UK-wide number starting 03, you would have received 0.3 pence per minute.


ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 3:11pm:

You quite clearly have no idea of telecoms. As I said above, the amount of money a telephone provider gets for a call to a 0870 number is around 6.5 pence per minute in the daytime. Compare that to the 0.3 pence per minute for geographical calls.

If the company receiving the call gets 2 pence per minute, that leaves 4.5 pence per minute for provision of the telephone services. High call volumes pay 4 or 4.5 pence per minute, which still leaves 2 pence per minute for provision of telecommunications services.

A free market works best when the party choosing the product pays for the service. Imagine going to a supermarket where someone else pays for you. The supermarket will have no incentive to reduce it charges or offer discounts.


ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 3:11pm:

With 09 numbers consumers know where they stand. Calls provide subsidy to the parties they're calling. They aren't used as an alternative to standard landline numbers.


ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 3:11pm:

There is no such thing as a free lunch, we know that. We call on openness rather than hiding the premiums I talked about above. A lot of this has come from the previous linkage of 0845 and 0870 to local and national rate, respectively. Providers of these numbers have used these terms aggressively, despite the fact that they have had no meaning for a number of years. This is due to the free market in telecommunications services you identify.

ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 3:11pm:
The true leeches are those organizations that have exploited the public over the last fifteen or so years with inappropriate numbering designed to deceive. An 08X call from a cellular device is not a 'few pence per minute'.

ShortSighted wrote on Jun 9^th, 2009 at 3:11pm:
Are you a member of some fascist organization that is opposed to free expression of thought? What is a true disgrace is the shafting of the public, in the order of billions of pounds, through an inadequately-regulated environment that allows legalized theft.

Well, Shortsighted really does live up to his/her name - or would blinkered or blindfolded be a better answer?    Sounds a bit like an MP justifying their expenses!  The reality is we DO pay for our phone calls, those who object to NGNs aren't getting phone calls free, what we object to is, if we are on a package, having to pay AGAIN or, if not, paying a premium.  As Stoday, quite rigtly says, these NGNs give a good clue as to organisations to avoid BUT some (eg public sector or monopoly utilities) give one no choice and that, in my view, is blackmail.  Others, for example some insurance companies, give 0800s for sales then, having snared the customer, exploit them with NGNs for everything else - claims, resolving problems & (their) errors.  This is NOT the marketplace, it is sharp practice &, as such, reprehensible.   Regarding prices, I would rather have an open idea of the true cost, if my car insurance preium is X, I expect that to cover the cost of insuring my car & any associated costs eg contacting the company, I do not expect to face the Ryanair brand of charging.  There, got that off my chest, as moderately as I could.  I suspect little or nothing further will be heard from Shortsighted who also demonstrates what a supremem democrat they are by calling for this site to be closed!

Stoday wrote on Jun 10^th, 2009 at 6:08am:

"Your call is important to us" is also a useful aid.

Your call is important to us > a) but not important enough for us to staff adequately;
                                             b) and provides a very useful source of income.

ShortSighted is yet another person who comes on here with the same old excuses and is not willing to respond to any further discussion. Speaks volumes doesn't it?

This is an open and public forum to which anyone is free to post, subject to certain rules. It is not a boxing booth in which one is invited to face up to punches from a group of proven champions in argument in an attempt to defeat them on their home territory.

Do we wish our opponents to hold and express stronger arguments? I am always infuriated when, for example, an act of terrorism is condemned for being "cowardly", as this implies a desire for such acts to be carried out with less concern for the risks presented by our attempts to defend ourselves against attack.

The purpose of a discussion forum is however to discuss the issues, not the individuals who post.

'For example an 0844 number costs about 5p per minute - hardly breaking the bank now is it? '

MUPPET, MUPPET, MUPPET, MUPPET, MUPPET!!!

An 08 number costs 40p a minute from my mobile phone. Living in shared accomodation, as many young people do in these times of extortionate rent, it is not feasible to have a fixed line phone where I live.

Lets say in a typical month I might call my bank, GP, a couple of companies such as Argos or British Gas, the council. Then there are 'once in a blue moon' calls to people like DVLA, the Passport Office, the police. Oh and I might book a holiday from time to time or concert tickets or something else such as car insurance.

So lets say in a month I spend about an hour of call time on such calls, not unrealistic given the amount of time spent on hold. That racks up a considerable £24 to add on my phone bill.

Do remember that when companies such as British Gas and many insurance companies opened these huge call centres, they did so to compensate for the fact that they closed down their High St shops (remember the Gas shops where you could pay your bill in person?) Well it is clearly cheaper for them to operate in this way and we shouldn't have to subsidise them further through extortionate call charges.

Also, your argument about cheaper insuranc policies due to 0844 completely contradicts what you say about the call charges not breaking the bank.

You obviously work for a Telco and are suffering as a result of people not calling your scam numbers. I too am a salesperson, but I am an honest one. Dishonest, cheating scammers like you will never prosper my friend.