As I understand it the terminology is as follows but I am no expert

STD Means standard calls                    01/02 etc
0345 means local including mobiles
0845 we don't want to use this only as a last resort
0800 numbers can be used at all times but not very economical from mobiles

Please let me know you thoughts in this matter


Baz

In response to Baz and Derrick, neither of whom did I intend to offend:

If RingLocal can operate without use of revenue sharing numbers, there is no reason why it should not be celebrated in the forum. If we are to accept “I did not want to do it”, “it’s only temporary” or “there is an alternative in the saynoto0870.com database” as justifications for revenue sharing, then we must apply the same generous approach to everyone. If we did, then many of those who are vilified in this forum would be excused.

Considering the many factors that may present jeopardy to this business such as being unable to recruit a sufficient number of subscribers to make it viable as a worthwhile service, or failing to generate enough high quality enquiries to meet their expectations, not to mention dealing with the attacks from competitors that will ensue if it is to become effective, I am astonished that a few comments that were critical only of the choice of this forum as a source of advice are seen as a matter of any concern whatsoever.

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In my posting I referred to the term “local call” in both the general and the particular sense. I did not however apply it to the 0845 prefix (which is used for national calls), nor did I make any reference to “national rate” or 0870. Misrepresentation of the rates applicable to calling these numbers is indeed a serious problem. That is however nothing to do with whether one can ring a local number. One would however perhaps expect a recognisably local number to be used for a service with this purpose. The exception would be a nationally managed and promoted service where calls were filtered to local centres according to the location of the caller.

As I read the terms of the Talk Talk “local rate” offer, it does offer some actual benefit. It does however muddy the waters, as do the historic BT tariffs that remain in force for a tiny number of residential customers. Further clouding is provided by business tariffs.

As the distinction between “local” and “national” calls remains and does apply to some tariffs and arrangements between telcos, we cannot assume that the difference will never be generally re-applied to call charges. Talk Talk claims its move was prompted by research, and the local / central cycle is a well known feature of all business. That is not however to say that a non-geographic code to offer the benefit of a local rate on a non-local call is bound to re-emerge, or that it would be 0845, or that it would involve revenue sharing.

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With many providers in a supposedly competitive market it is very difficult to make clear and simple rules. Furthermore, each has the opportunity to introduce their own terminology using common words with particular meanings applied to them.

I will resist the temptation to get involved in arguments about simplistic universal definitions for dialling code prefixes. I will however point out that whoever introduced the word “local” to apply to 0345 prefixes did so without any authority that I am aware of. When someone makes an important  statement that may be relied upon it is necessary to check the disclaimer at the bottom of the email or, if made by telephone, to verify that they are authorised to do so on behalf of the organisation that they purport to represent.

As I stated before, do we still make trunk calls?

derrick wrote on Jul 30^th, 2009 at 10:16am:

Trading Standards Institute Article 180805  says that the designation of 0845 being 'local rate' has become misleading and that they have now been changed. It goes on to say that under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, it is an offence to give misleading price indications to consumers and to omit details about prices if they also mislead.

This was formally covered within the Consumer Protection Act 1987 Part III, as derrick points out.

The point here is that terms like "local rate", "local call rate" and "lo-call" are considered misleading with respect to 0845 pricing. For this reason, you should avoid using them.


However, derrick takes this further and says that there is "no such term" as "RingLocal" or "The Alternative Local 118 Service". I think that this is merely his own phobia of the use of the word "local" with respect to telecommunications services.

Only if it can be shown that "local" - as in equivalent to a local call rate - is used to represent the cost of calling the 0845 number is a complaint valid. The service Baz has been working on was called "RingLocal" since before he decided that it will probably use one of these numbers. I have always taken this name to imply that it is a service where one can "Ring a local company" and not that the call would be a charged at local rate.

The strap line "The Alternative Local 118 Service", again there is nothing to suggest that the word "local" is referring to the call rate. So I have no concern with the use of either of these terms.

I do, however, note that Baz has used the term "Lo-Call". Lo-Call was a BT trademark for 0845 and prior to that the old 0345 range (which was moved to 08457). Therefore, I urge that any reference to this term should be binned as it clearly refers to the call charge rate that service users will incur with their own telephone providers for ringing the service.


What I don't particularly like, but which is not against any legislation, is the use of the term "local rate" with respect to charges in general. It's fine where a particular telephone service tariff charges different local and national rates, but as a more generic term it helps reinforce the myth among consumers that a national call does cost more than a local one. If tariffs with aligned local and national call rates were rare "special cases" that made clear this fact, then perhaps it wouldn't be so bad.

Saying that 03xx is "local rate" or "the same price as a local call" has not been ruled misleading by trading standards or Ofcom, but as a campaigner looking to dispell myths and make telephone services clearer and better understood, I would advise against it. Ideally, I'd like to see something like "geographical rate" or "landline rate" be more prevalent.

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On the point about use of the revenue sharing 0845 number, its use, even for a few months is still use of a revenue sharing number. This is regardless of the motive to obtain a 03xx number ending 118118, which I appreciate will help your service to be easier to keep in peoples' minds as it is memorable number.

You have posted on here before about RingLocal, and, IIRC, it used a 0800 number. Is it not sustainable to continue with the 0800 number?

This service will be unique in that none of the others on freephone numbers offer to put callers through. Granted, this will only be for those business that wish to pay to become clients of the service.

It will mean that there will be no nasty surprises of forwarded calls costing a fortune, as they do now with DQ services on 118 numbers. Even mobile callers will only pay their normal 01/02/03 rate (and from inclusive minutes where applicable). Just so long as mobile providers don't decide to list RingLocal's 0345 number as a "special case" and charge extra for it.

bazzerfewi wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2009 at 1:08am:



Ahem... I quote Derrick who eloquently put this in reply #9

"local" call  there is no such term, and in fact breaks the Consumer Protection Act 1987 Part III,Misleading price indications! All numbers beginning 01/02/03 regardless of distance are charged at the same rate as your originating telco, this has been the case since July 2004

bazzerfewi wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2009 at 1:08am:

I quote the designation for numbers beginning 034 from Ofcom's National Telephone Numbering Plan as published on 22 July 2009:

UK-wide Numbers at a geographic rate: migrating numbers from matching 084 numbers, calls charged at up to the same rate the customer would pay to call a UK Geographic Number, with calls to 034 numbers counting towards inclusive call minutes if the customer has remaining inclusive minutes to UK Geographic Numbers, and included in any discount structures that apply to UK Geographic Numbers

The definition says these calls are to be charged "up to the same rate the customer would pay to call a UK Geographic Number." In actual fact, the new 03xx range has never been decreed as being "local rate" by Ofcom. The "upto" just means that they should not be charged above the cost of geographic calls.

However, as the vast majority of people pay the same for local and national calls (and hence 03 calls), so in those cases, it could be said that they pay "local rate" for a 03xx call. Also, a national call is also charged at "local rate".