SAYNOTO0870.COM - Avoiding charges to free numbers

sherbert

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Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers
Reply #30 - Jan 10^th, 2010 at 11:52am

floella2 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2010 at 2:40am:

As for 'moaning' about it, I do not actually know anybody that needs their landline to call mobiles (I only know two people who have one!).

So, do you give an alternative number for the two people who have a land line that you know so they can telephone you more cheaply than a mobile rate?

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floella2

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Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers
Reply #31 - Jan 10^th, 2010 at 10:15pm

sherbert wrote on Jan 10^th, 2010 at 11:52am:

floella2 wrote on Jan 10^th, 2010 at 2:40am:

As for 'moaning' about it, I do not actually know anybody that needs their landline to call mobiles (I only know two people who have one!).

So, do you give an alternative number for the two people who have a land line that you know so they can telephone you more cheaply than a mobile rate?

For you, my friend, I would. I now have a landline since it is now physically possible for me to do so. I understand that many people who were adults during the Thatcher era were in a position to purchase their own house for 3 times their income and obtain a quality PUBLIC SERVICE from BT but things are now much different for those of us who were at school during Thatcherism and the big sell off of everything.

Those who live in private rented accommodation, shared houses, student halls etc are not always in the position to be allowed a landline, and many people today have little alternative but to live in such accommodation (raising 40 or 50 grand for a house deposit takes years upon years of hard graft)

I lived in such accommodation and was fleeced for years to pay somebody elses mortgage but am now fortunate enough to have broken free from this modern form of slavery. So, this gripe is not about myself, it is about those who do not benefit from a landline to call 'freephone' numbers.

Now, note that many 'freephone' numbers are provided by companies offering their services (sales departments). They WANT business, so offering a geo number would attract more calls from people with inclusive minutes and no landline.

Many government departments should have freephone numbers, offering a geo number would attract more calls from people with inclusive minutes and no landline.

So, it is a complete and utterly simple point I am making:

To any organisation that uses 'freephone', just publish the corresponding geographic number as well so people who cannot have a landline and cannot afford to spend extra on 'freephone' numbers have the choice of which number to use.

This is an absolute no-brainer, everybody (organisation included) saves money and the only cost is a few lines of text on a website or an advert (ie nothing)

Wandle Housing Association (link given earlier) is the perfect example of this absolutely simple strategy.

Is this so complicated or am I missing something???

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« Last Edit: Jan 10^th, 2010 at 10:35pm by floella2 »

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floella2

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Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers
Reply #32 - Jan 19^th, 2010 at 2:03pm

Just at work and came across a housing association that offers freephone numbers and also publishes the geographical alternative. It even goes as far as to recommend 0800buster.com as an alternative to 'freephone' numbers.

http://www.placesforpeople.co.uk/Contact_us.aspx

Now that is what I call responsible customer service and I recommend all organisations to do the same.

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sherbert Supreme Member Offline Posts: 2,011 Gender:	Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers Reply #33 - Jan 19^th, 2010 at 2:53pm 0200 222 0700 & 0200 222 0900 do the same and are often mentioned on this site.
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catj Senior Member Offline Posts: 366	Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers Reply #34 - Jan 19^th, 2010 at 3:16pm To be clear, those are National Dialling Only numbers, allocated to the London area. As the Local Number part begins with the zero, the area code must always be dialled. 020 0222 0700 020 0222 0900 Some telecoms providers may not connect calls to some NDO number ranges.
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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers
Reply #35 - Jan 19^th, 2010 at 3:48pm

floella2 wrote on Jan 19^th, 2010 at 2:03pm:

Now that is what I call responsible customer service and I recommend all organisations to do the same.

Indeed, or better still, do what the DWP has done and pay the Mobile companies to make 0800 calls free.

If enough organisations indicate that they are ready to meet the cost of calls from mobiles, then Ofcom could be persuaded to make this an option as a standard feature on a dedicated range of numbers. So far as I know, the DWP is the only organisation in this position and it has negotiated its own particular terms. This is however significant as it proves that it can be done. There is no good reason why any other sizable organisation, e.g. the motoring recovery services, could not follow this lead.

(Those offering "Helplines" can benefit from a voluntary agreement under which the mobile telcos simply waive their charges. This option was not available to the DWP, as its services are "transactional".)

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floella2

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Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers
Reply #36 - Jan 21^st, 2010 at 4:08pm

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 19^th, 2010 at 3:48pm:

floella2 wrote on Jan 19^th, 2010 at 2:03pm:

Now that is what I call responsible customer service and I recommend all organisations to do the same.

Indeed, or better still, do what the DWP has done and pay the Mobile companies to make 0800 calls free.

Excellent idea, in part. Now I do not fully understand the ins and outs but am I correct in saying:

For 'freephone' calls from landlines, the recipient pays the telco.
For 'freephone' calls from mobiles, the recipient pays the telco and the caller pays their mobile provider.

So for DWP to pay for the calls from mobiles, they are effectively paying the telco twice? If so we are effectively paying, through taxation, a telco for a service that has absolutely no benefit to a mobile caller or the recipient.

If this is the case, the simple answer, again, is to simply publish both the 'freephone' number AND the geographical alternative, allowing the caller to make the choice. (And saving the recipient money too).

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers
Reply #37 - Jan 21^st, 2010 at 5:27pm

floella2 wrote on Jan 21^st, 2010 at 4:08pm:

So for DWP to pay for the calls from mobiles, they are effectively paying the telco twice? If so we are effectively paying, through taxation, a telco for a service that has absolutely no benefit to a mobile caller or the recipient.

If this is the case, the simple answer, again, is to simply publish both the 'freephone' number AND the geographical alternative, allowing the caller to make the choice. (And saving the recipient money too).

Your understanding of the general principles matches my own - there are however two points.

1. The money that goes to the mobile telco for originating a 0800 call is only the same as that which a landline telco would receive. Mobile calls are more expensive - whether or not that really is, or really should be, true is another issue - for now, that is how things work. I trust that the extra payment made by the DWP is just what is necessary to meet the gap, or at least the smallest amount that it could get away with. Paying twice can mean paying in two bits, it does not have to mean paying double the amount.

2. Publishing geo numbers is a perfect solution for those who do not pay extra to call them (as well as those they are calling) - I have an almost unlimited amount of time for this on my contract. It is not the same for those who do pay. Typically this is those on PAYG, which one suspects would be a large proportion of those who call the DWP. I have not done a detailed study, but as a by-product of another exercise I gained the impression that 0800 and geo calls are often charged at the same rate.

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floella2

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Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers
Reply #38 - Jan 28^th, 2010 at 4:26pm

A very good point, particualarly about DWP and PAYG, (although bear in mind many people are losing their jobs at the moment and quite possibly have a contract phone at the time).

I still maintain though that it is in everybody's interests, caller and recipient, to publish both numbers. A good example - I see an ad on the bus with a freephone number and I am not going to call it from my mobile. By the time I walk through my front door, I have forgotten about it and just want to put the kettle on

Net result - I lose interest, company loses opportunity.

Can anybody give me a single reason as to why on ads, websites etc it would be so bad to us or the recipient for the geographic number to be published along with the freephone?

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« Last Edit: Jan 28^th, 2010 at 4:26pm by floella2 »

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers
Reply #39 - Jan 28^th, 2010 at 9:03pm

floella2 wrote on Jan 28^th, 2010 at 4:26pm:

Can anybody give me a single reason as to why on ads, websites etc it would be so bad to us or the recipient for the geographic number to be published along with the freephone?

It is for each to give their own reasons, however I can suggest two. Please let nobody be misled into thinking that I see these reasons as either a) applying in every case, or b) overriding the arguments in favour.

1. There is a strong resistance in all situations to providing two telephone numbers. It begs the question of just who should use which. Those unable to work this out for themselves could claim to be either or both confused and misled. It is commonly believed that BT is the only landline provider required to offer calls to 080 numbers without charge. It is sometimes implied that some mobile providers do not charge for calls to any 080 number. There are some mobile tariffs which charge no more for a 080, than a geo, call.

How many pages of small print should there be to accompany the simple listing of two telephone numbers. Most advertisers would treat the idea of publishing two numbers with horror (even without any explanation at all).

2. In many cases there will not be an obvious simple alternative geo number. If all the 080 calls are always routed to the same point, then it is simple. This point is discussed in this posting.

I personally share the dislike of alternative numbers being published for access to the same service, as a point of general principle. This is primarily for the reasons given above, but for others as well. That is not to say that there are not some EXCEPTIONAL circumstances in which this could be acceptable. If a 080 user can be persuaded to do this, then I would certainly not oppose the idea and would be happy to promote the idea, as worthy of consideration.

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sherbert

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Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers
Reply #40 - Jan 29^th, 2010 at 10:30am

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 28^th, 2010 at 9:03pm:

[

I personally share the dislike of alternative numbers being published for access to the same service, as a point of general principle.

If that is the case SilentCallsVictim, why are you a member of this site which promotes the use of them and there are members (myself included) that spends a lot of time looking for alternative numbers for others to use?

i would have thought if you disliked them so much you would not bother being here, or am I missing something?

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Barbara Supreme Member Offline Posts: 598	Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers Reply #41 - Jan 29^th, 2010 at 12:11pm Well said, sherbert, I agree absolutely. Also why would two numbers be any more misleading that one 08XX number when polls (eg Rip Off Britain) show the vast majority of the public has no idea of relative costs?
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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers
Reply #42 - Jan 29^th, 2010 at 1:25pm

sherbert wrote on Jan 29^th, 2010 at 10:30am:

i would have thought if you disliked them so much you would not bother being here, or am I missing something?

This point has been made before. It should be noted that I did refer to exceptional situations, so I am not sure what is meant by "so much".

What may have been missed is that the dislike referred to was of alternatives being published by the users of numbers. Sadly the general level of knowledge about the complex matter of telephone tariffs is so poor that this cannot fairly be presented as being a matter of "choice". In the case of public services, important issues about different levels of service being provided at different levels of cost come into play.

I am however prepared to acknowledge that there are exceptional situations; I will give two examples. In the current situation (with 111 on the horizon) it makes sense not to cause the considerable level of expenditure and confusion that would result from the NHS Direct Health Advice and Information service being moved from 0845 4647. (This should have been done some years ago, at the very latest as soon as the 03 range was made available, but the situation has now changed.) I have therefore proposed that 0345 4647 be switched on in parallel, properly notified as being available, but not invariably advised alongside 0845 4647 in all cases and on all materials.

The second example relates to a situation where a 080 user is able to offer a geo or 03 number for use by mobile callers that provides the hosting same access, but at lesser cost (to both parties). As stated above, I would urge consideration of such a number being published alongside the 080 number in all cases where this was appropriate. I would however urge all genuine helplines to register under the THA scheme and for others to also consider following the lead of the DWP. If enough 080 users are found to be ready to meet the cost of calls from mobiles fort this to be worthwhile, then I would urge Ofcom to allocate a special range of numbers with such an arrangement as a standard feature.

The saynoto0870 database of alternative numbers provides a very useful and worthwhile service to many telephone callers. It also provides the web traffic to fund the hosting of this forum, where related issues may be discussed. If this enterprise only wishes to publish comments of praise and support, then dissenting views, that may scare of sponsors or offend subscribers, could be debarred. I am indeed myself sometimes surprised to find some forum members supporting my efforts to reinstate the principles of the NHS and of public service more generally, as many seem to hold political views that are wholly incompatible with these principles.

On the specific point at issue, there are many reasons why neither indirect nor even direct publication of "alternative numbers" is not the complete answer to all of the issues relating to revenue sharing, or indeed "freephone" numbers. Although some may think otherwise, I recognise that the principles of "consumerism" and "choice" have their limits.

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Barbara Supreme Member Offline Posts: 598	Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers Reply #43 - Jan 29^th, 2010 at 2:06pm Brevity and clarity are admirable qualities in written English. Endless esoteric posts are of no assistance to anyone.
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floella2 Junior Member Offline Posts: 91	Re: Avoiding charges to free numbers Reply #44 - Jan 29^th, 2010 at 4:20pm Yes Barbara, agreed wholeheartedly! As a matter of simplicity on how to list an 0800 and its geographical equivalent, I again mention the housing association that does this in a completely easy and understandable way: http://www.placesforpeople.co.uk/Contact_us.aspx Simples
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