SAYNOTO0870.COM - Inclusive calls not free from BT

whitespace

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Inclusive calls not free from BT
Jan 1^st, 2010 at 11:56am

This is not about specialized numbers but about inclusive calls in BT packages. 0844/5 numbers are included in my BT package, as are 01/02/03. However, I recently received some charges on my BT bill and on querying these received some surprising information. Although I had called an included number because I had then been obliged to call another number to be forwarded during that call I had been charged for that portion. Firstly, I have never seen this written down anywhere so was not aware of its existence. Secondly, and more importantly, as the number called was also one which would have been in my included numbers list why was it charged for anyway?
And finally, who can make sense of BT's charging system??

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sherbert Supreme Member Offline Posts: 2,011 Gender:	Re: Inclusive calls not free from BT Reply #1 - Jan 1^st, 2010 at 12:06pm Welcome to the forum. Not so, the number you dial is the number you will be charged for. This is explained eslewhere on this site. What BT calling plan are you on?
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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Inclusive calls not free from BT
Reply #2 - Jan 1^st, 2010 at 12:09pm

whitespace wrote on Jan 1^st, 2010 at 11:56am:

And finally, who can make sense of BT's charging system??

It would appear that whoever provided the advice that you refer to is not included in that group!

Unlike 0845, calls to 0844 numbers are not included in your BT package.

You cannot be charged, through your telephone bill, for any forwarding that takes place during a call. The call that you dial is the only call that you can be charged for. There is some hint that you may have been using the 3-way calling or conference facility, which is subject to a separate charge, although this would not seem to be the case.

There are many myths around regarding secretive charging, I fear that inaccurate answers to questions (probably based on guess-work and a misunderstanding of the situation, rather than actually verification of the circumstances) may have helped to promote one such myth.

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whitespace

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Re: Inclusive calls not free from BT
Reply #3 - Jan 1^st, 2010 at 12:12pm

Not sure what plan I am on without locating a bill (big task!) but the response I got from BT was that yes, the number I had dialled originally was included and I had not been charged for that part of the call but as I had had to dial this other number, regardless of what it was (ie included or not) I would always be charged for it, though if it were an included one the charge would be discounted by comparison with a non-included one. (How do you discount zero and get a positive charge I wonder?) I did battle on but they just gave me a bottom line of 'these charges are correct' and have since ignored my communications.
The trouble is I am not going to change their minds and so how much time does one waste pursuing a righteous goal with an unrighteous company?

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irrelevant

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Re: Inclusive calls not free from BT
Reply #4 - Jan 1^st, 2010 at 1:19pm

You should be able to access your bill, and recent calls, via bt.com.

It's all a bit confusing for us, without the specific details (e.g. the numbers used - feel free to leave off the least few digits - times and durations of calls, etc.) but this may be telling:
whitespace wrote on Jan 1^st, 2010 at 12:12pm:

but as I had had to dial this other number,

If you dialled one number and it told you to redial another number, and you hung up and did so, then that counts a separate call, and would be charged separately. If it just said they were forwarding you to another number, and you didn't actually dial the number yourself, then AFAIK there is no way for you to be charged for it.

As others have noted, BT include calls to (most) 0845/0870 numbers within the times of their call plans, but not to 0844/0843/0871/0872 numbers. If you dialled one of these, then you would be charged for them.

If you can recall the exact sequence of events, then that may allow us to advise or explain things further.

HTH.

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« Last Edit: Jan 1^st, 2010 at 1:20pm by irrelevant »

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sherbert

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Re: Inclusive calls not free from BT
Reply #5 - Jan 1^st, 2010 at 1:46pm

whitespace wrote on Jan 1^st, 2010 at 12:12pm:

There are three plans which are self explanatory

Unlimited Weekend Plan

Unlimited Evening & Weekend Plan

Unlimited Anytime Plan

This will give you inclusive calls up to 60 minutes for 01, 02, 03, 0870 & 0845 numbers only.

However for example, if you are on the first plan and made a call outside that time frame you will be charged.

As previously said, tell us what plan you are on, so we can help you. You can access your BT account on line

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idb

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Re: Inclusive calls not free from BT
Reply #6 - Jan 1^st, 2010 at 3:47pm

Never really understood this 60 minute restriction and why it needs to be in place. Basic phone service here costs $13.68* a month with free local calls. No call length limit, no restrictions on call type - data, voice, it really doesn't matter. I recall BT used to, and probably still does, maintain a long list of geographic 'data' numbers that terminated on ISPs and would be excluded from the free calls. Is it possible that the UK system simply cannot handle large call volumes, or is this just greed from the telephone providers?

*plus taxes

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SilentCallsVictim

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Re: Inclusive calls not free from BT
Reply #7 - Jan 1^st, 2010 at 3:56pm

idb wrote on Jan 1^st, 2010 at 3:47pm:

Never really understood this 60 minute restriction and why it needs to be in place. Is it possible that the UK system simply cannot handle large call volumes, or is this just greed from the telephone providers?

I had always assumed that the limit was in place to prevent needless use of finite network capacity, as one is encouraged to re-dial after 60 minutes when continuing a conversation.

As "greed" is suggested as being an alternative reason, I am sure that many would be drawn to conclude that this must be a far better explanation.

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idb

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Re: Inclusive calls not free from BT
Reply #8 - Jan 1^st, 2010 at 4:16pm

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Jan 1^st, 2010 at 3:56pm:

idb wrote on Jan 1^st, 2010 at 3:47pm:

Never really understood this 60 minute restriction and why it needs to be in place. Is it possible that the UK system simply cannot handle large call volumes, or is this just greed from the telephone providers?

I had always assumed that the limit was in place to prevent needless use of finite network capacity, as one is encouraged to re-dial after 60 minutes when continuing a conversation.

As "greed" is suggested as being an alternative reason, I am sure that many would be drawn to conclude that this must be a far better explanation.

There has seemingly been a reluctance for UK telecommunication providers to offer a true unlimited / free plan. Fair use policies and other terms and conditions generally appear to apply. Essentially, if you use the service more than we think you should, we'll punish you. I remember reading various of these fair use policies some time back and they were always vague and subject to interpretation.

Here, fair use policies on cellular data networks (here, the networks are, according to claims from the providers, 'overloaded') usually apply, however many cellular plans give free nighttime and weekend voice minutes with no limitation on how long one spends on a given call.

Having read the T+C of my own AT&T POTS line, it appears that if I had the inclination to call a local number for 60*24*31 minutes, there would be no subsequent punitive sanction.

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Dave

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Re: Inclusive calls not free from BT
Reply #9 - Jan 1^st, 2010 at 4:32pm

Hi whitespace and welcome to SAYNOTO0870.COM.

Which BT tariff ("Calling Plan") you're on affects the time at which calls are inclusive; whether sometimes or all the time.

Calls to 0844 numbers are not part of BT inclusive packages. The only 084x and 087x numbers that are inclusive with BT are those prefixed 0845 and 0870.

Call rates don't change mid-call, whether the receiving party forwards you on or not. I can think of far more logical explanations of the charge and I think more evidence needs to be obtained to clarify what happened.

You are alledging that BT has charged you for a call which it should not have done. It has said that the charges are correct but you continue to maintain that it is wrong without having any evidence.

There are a number of possibile reasons that call charges are incurred on so-called inclusive tariffs. Some are as follows:

The call was made outside of the inclusive period.
You are on one of the Calling Plans that only includes calls at certain times, for example, during the weekend only. If a call started on Sunday evening and continued past midnight into Monday, the part after midnight will be chargeable.
Where more than 150 calls or 1,000 minutes of calls to 0845 numbers have been made during the current month. Likewise with 0870 numbers.
Calls to Channel Islands numbers 01481 and 01534 (Guernsey and Jersey respectively) are chargeable at all times and not part of inclusive packages.
The number dialled started with 0844, 0843, 0871, 0872, 09 and some other prefixes.

In closing, I suggest that you log in to your account at BT.com and find out what call it was that you were charged for. I am also interested in how the second call was made. What was it you were calling and why did they forward your call or request you redialled?

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« Last Edit: Jan 1^st, 2010 at 6:25pm by Dave »

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catj

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Re: Inclusive calls not free from BT
Reply #10 - Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 12:01am

Quote:

the number I had dialled originally was included and I had not been charged for that part of the call but as I had had to dial this other number

So, if you hung up and dialled a different number, then that is a separate call and you would be charged based on what number you had dialled for this separate call.

As for the 60 minute restriction, one reason is technical. There are not enough interconnects between separate exchanges for every person in the country to be on the telephone at the same time. There's only capacity for something like one in seven lines to originate a call at any one time.

It's extremely rare, but it is possible to receive a 'line busy' tone immediately upon picking up the handset, even before dialling any of the number, or else immediately after dialling the area code for a distant exchange, as opposed to a busy tone received after dialling all of the number when the called party is already on a call.

By placing a limit on call length, lines are freed up on a regular basis; anything stuck on for way longer than that probably indicates a fault condition of some sort. Additionally, people need to hang up occasionally just in case someone has been trying to call them for ages while the line was already busy with another call.

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« Last Edit: Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 12:02am by catj »

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irrelevant

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Re: Inclusive calls not free from BT
Reply #11 - Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 12:50am

Back in 1999, C&W offered a price cap on geographic calls made on Saturdays of 50p "regardless of call duration". (Promo 247, I still have the PDF saved.) They neglected to exclude calls made to ISPs. There was evidence that calls started during the Saturday that continued past midnight were not charged.

I think the longest I held a call open was five days, but apparently there were people who managed to stay online for weeks at a time, all for 50p a call. This was back in the days when most people still paid "local call rates" for dial-up internet...

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idb

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Re: Inclusive calls not free from BT
Reply #12 - Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 1:56am

irrelevant wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2010 at 12:50am:

Back in 1999, C&W offered a price cap on geographic calls made on Saturdays of 50p "regardless of call duration". (Promo 247, I still have the PDF saved.) They neglected to exclude calls made to ISPs. There was evidence that calls started during the Saturday that continued past midnight were not charged.

I think the longest I held a call open was five days, but apparently there were people who managed to stay online for weeks at a time, all for 50p a call. This was back in the days when most people still paid "local call rates" for dial-up internet...

I remember this well. My free ISP at the time, Gateway, could also use the geographic paid ISP Pipex number. I recall having to set up a background process so that the call would not disconnect, which generally worked. It was always a minor annoyance when the call would drop, and a day of web use would cost a pound or 1-50 rather than fifty pence! How things have changed in just over a decade.

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