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BT Evening period changes - April 2010 (Read 38,995 times)
SilentCallsVictim
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #15 - Feb 3rd, 2010 at 3:02pm
 
jrawle wrote on Feb 3rd, 2010 at 11:16am:
I thought you were saying that BT are trying to stop people taking calls packages other than the "anytime" package.

There is no question that BT is pushing the Anytime call plan very hard. The figures show that you do not have to make “a lot” of daytime calls for it to be worthwhile. It is only in cases where daytime calls are truly exceptional that the exceptional penalty charges apply.

jrawle wrote on Feb 3rd, 2010 at 11:16am:
Perhaps a better way to compare services is now for features other than the price.

Fair point, however I was not thinking about comparisons between different services providers, but different types of call.

I was referring to the fact that the non-inclusive charges levied by BT are commonly used as a way of indicating “the cost of a phone call”. These “penalty charges” could be (indeed they are) set against the regulated cost of calling 084 numbers from BT, which thereby appear very cheap. Nobody should be misled into thinking that 9.9p plus 9.3 15.9p per minute is the “normal” cost of a “normal” weekday daytime phone call. BT’s charges for calls to 084 numbers are also exceptional, because they alone are regulated.

sherbert wrote on Feb 3rd, 2010 at 11:20am:
Remember from April 1st that is changing to 7pm

We do not yet know whether other landline providers will follow BT. I have suggested that there is no reason to suspect that Virgin Media will do so, indeed it has hinted that it will not. I have not yet seen any indication of whether BT will be applying this change to the termination fees it charges others for originating calls to its network. This would have a considerable effect, if it were to happen - other providers could dispute such a change with Ofcom.

1 oops - typo corrected Smiley
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« Last Edit: Feb 3rd, 2010 at 5:55pm by SilentCallsVictim »  
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sherbert
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #16 - Feb 3rd, 2010 at 3:16pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 3rd, 2010 at 3:02pm:
Nobody should be misled into thinking that 9.9p plus 9.3p per minute is the “normal” cost of a “normal” weekday daytime phone call.





Where has that come from? My email from BT says ....

From 1st April 2010, the cost of UK landline calls made during the daytime will increase from 5.4 pence per minute to 5.9 pence per minute. (plus 9.9p set up fee)
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jrawle
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #17 - Feb 3rd, 2010 at 4:32pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 3rd, 2010 at 11:20am:
Remember from April 1st that is changing to 7pm

That's what I meant by, "...would now certainly be better off with a service that has a more reasonable definition of the evening." i.e. a service not provided by BT that considers the evening (still) to start at 6pm.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #18 - Feb 3rd, 2010 at 5:55pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 3rd, 2010 at 3:16pm:
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 3rd, 2010 at 3:02pm:
Nobody should be misled into thinking that 9.9p plus 9.3p per minute is the “normal” cost of a “normal” weekday daytime phone call.

Where has that come from? My email from BT says ....
From 1st April 2010, the cost of UK landline calls made during the daytime will increase from 5.4 pence per minute to 5.9 pence per minute. (plus 9.9p set up fee)

A slip on my behalf, please retain the quote. I have however corrected the posting to avoid further confusion.
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jrawle
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #19 - Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:41am
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 3rd, 2010 at 3:02pm:
There is no question that BT is pushing the Anytime call plan very hard. The figures show that you do not have to make “a lot” of daytime calls for it to be worthwhile. It is only in cases where daytime calls are truly exceptional that the exceptional penalty charges apply.

I didn't see this post yesterday for some reason! The only reason you don't need to make a lot of daytime calls to make the Anytime package worthwhile is because BT are charging a rip-off rate (your "penalty charge") for daytime calls. Yet for the extra £5 per month, I can make 100 calls through 18185 or similar - a total I'll never reach. That's why I think we should promote such services loudly. If your daytime usage is always exceptional, it's possible to have the best of both worlds: the lower line rental cost and the ability to make calls for only 5p each.

Incidentally, I just looked at the BT site to check the prices, and despite the assurances they gave you, I do find it extremely ominous that there is no mention of the evening calls package. If they really wanted to promote this as an option for people signing up for a long contract, it'd be mentioned at the bottom of the weekend package's calling plan information. There's simply no mention of free evening calls at all on this page.
http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/displayCategory.do?catego...
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #20 - Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:51am
 
jrawle wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:41am:
Incidentally, I just looked at the BT site to check the prices, and despite the assurances they gave you, I do find it extremely ominous that there is no mention of the evening calls package. If they really wanted to promote this as an option for people signing up for a long contract, it'd be mentioned at the bottom of the weekend package's calling plan information. There's simply no mention of free evening calls at all on this page.
http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/displayCategory.do?catego...



jrawle.....see my original post and SCV's reply #1
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #21 - Feb 4th, 2010 at 11:25am
 
jrawle wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 10:41am:
Incidentally, I just looked at the BT site to check the prices, and despite the assurances they gave you, I do find it extremely ominous that there is no mention of the evening calls package. If they really wanted to promote this as an option for people signing up for a long contract, it'd be mentioned at the bottom of the weekend package's calling plan information. There's simply no mention of free evening calls at all on this page.
http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/displayCategory.do?catego...

There was no mention of the BT Standard tariff on the main BT.com website for a few years before its demise.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #22 - Feb 4th, 2010 at 1:02pm
 
The point about the web page for new customers is that they get a free first year upgrade to Evening and Weekend if they sign up for 12 months.

All three packages are also available without a 12 month commitment, but on different terms, which are not mentioned on the page. The only options presented are those for a 12 month contract. Given the special offer, it would not make sense to sign up to Evening and Weekend for the first 12 months at the normal price, because you can get it for free.

This is how the marketing people chose to present the options simply to new customers. They want them to sign up for a year, hopefully with Anytime!

After your first 12 months with BT you become an “existing customer” and so have a separate web page - http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/displayCategory.do?catego.... This shows all 3 plans and their terms.

Details of the special offers available are not shown, they are available by following the link at the top of the page. The point is that you cannot benefit from a special offer by downgrading - e.g. you cannot switch from Anytime to Weekend and get the free first year upgrade.

One can argue for ever about the way the deals are constructed and presented. One can always find some element of dishonesty in marketing as there will always be some point of detail that has been omitted.

Different people will chose different packages and providers for all manner of reasons. That is a fair point for discussion in this area of the forum, however my concern is purely about the impact of this move on revenue sharing numbers.

These damned “penalty charges” can make calls to 084 numbers appear to be cheap, if they are presented as being typical. I am anxious to try to get across the point that very few people will actually pay them, because they will be likely to sign up for Anytime. This is very important, given the way in which the Department of Health has framed the regulations for the NHS, which refer only to relative cost, rather than the prohibition of use of all revenue sharing and premium rate numbers which would have been much simpler and more effective.

I cannot rely on the suggestion that BT customers would, or ought to, use 18185 when making an appointment with their GP, thereby making a geo or 03 number cheaper.

There may well be many people who will now choose to take a £5 discount on their BT Bill and pay for their weekday calls as they make them through another provider. There may indeed be many of the 5.3 million Weekend only customers who already do this. I am however most reluctant to start getting into details about exactly what people actually do as I do not have the relevant figures.

The simple point that I wish to make is that the non-inclusive charges for calls that would otherwise be included in a package are NOT the true standard charge and should not be seen, or presented, as such. BT’s heavy promotion of Anytime serves to assist and strengthen that point.

There may be some who will say that Anytime is an expensive load of nonsense, used by only a few people, and the so-called “penalty rates” are BT’s normal charges. They will continue by saying that they are actually saving people money by giving them a 0844 number to call more cheaply, as well as giving them a better telephone service.

That is what I am trying to fight. I am not seeking to promote BT, a Swiss bucket-shop or any other provider, so I may be out of order in this area of the forum. I do not necessarily expect members of this forum to share my views on this, or any other, matter, so it may be best if we simply agree to differ.
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #23 - Feb 4th, 2010 at 1:20pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 1:02pm:
The point about the web page for new customers is that they get a free first year upgrade to Evening and Weekend if they sign up for 12 months.

All three packages are also available without a 12 month commitment, but on different terms, which are not mentioned on the page. The only options presented are those for a 12 month contract. Given the special offer, it would not make sense to sign up to Evening and Weekend for the first 12 months at the normal price, because you can get it for free.




So what is the normal price SCV? I have been on 'evening and week end' for a couple of years and they have never ever charged me for this package, indeed on their web site they advertise this package as £0 per month plus the £11.54 line rental
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #24 - Feb 4th, 2010 at 2:42pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 1:20pm:
So what is the normal price SCV? I have been on 'evening and week end' for a couple of years and they have never ever charged me for this package, indeed on their web site they advertise this package as £0 per month plus the £11.54 line rental

Yes, I understand that the "free evenings" offer is sometimes extended beyond the first year.

Now that evenings are getting shorter in the Spring (except for early risers who call other early risers), it may be that "free evenings" will become a lasting feature.

Given the above, you can look on the "normal price" in two ways. I say that
the normal price is Anytime, with a discount available for those who do not use their phone during weekday daytime (up to 7pm). This includes all "normal" calls to landlines, although those who take the discount and then make calls are penalised.
That is how I see BT presenting its position - how else can it justify continually increasing the cost of non-inclusive calls at 30% per annum, whilst the only package price increase was to accommodate the inclusion of 0845 calls.

A 0844 user would say that
the line rental includes "normal" calls to landlines, except during the weekday daytime, although you can pay extra to avoid the rip-off rates that BT charges for normal calls during the day.
They could add that
callers to their 0844 numbers are not only paying less, but they can also avoid the scam of an additional charge for inclusive daytime calls, because the 0844 calls are not included. Many people are out and about on their mobile phones during the day, so this extra charge is pointless anyway, because mobile calls are not included.
I have colour-coded my view against that which I am fighting, so as to make my position clear.
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #25 - Feb 4th, 2010 at 3:03pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 1:02pm:
All three packages are also available without a 12 month commitment, but on different terms, which are not mentioned on the page. The only options presented are those for a 12 month contract. Given the special offer, it would not make sense to sign up to Evening and Weekend for the first 12 months at the normal price, because you can get it for free.

I understand that all BT "packages" have a minimum 12 month contract.


sherbert wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 1:20pm:
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 1:02pm:
The point about the web page for new customers is that they get a free first year upgrade to Evening and Weekend if they sign up for 12 months.

All three packages are also available without a 12 month commitment, but on different terms, which are not mentioned on the page. The only options presented are those for a 12 month contract. Given the special offer, it would not make sense to sign up to Evening and Weekend for the first 12 months at the normal price, because you can get it for free.




So what is the normal price SCV? I have been on 'evening and week end' for a couple of years and they have never ever charged me for this package, indeed on their web site they advertise this package as £0 per month plus the £11.54 line rental

sherbert, you are on Evening and Weekend Calling Plan and get it for the price of the Weekend Plan which is the basic line rental option. For this, you have signed up for a so-called 12 month rolling contract whereby after 12 months, you are automatically signed up for another 12 months.

BT is essentially buying you into the rolling contract. That is, you get the discount of £2.99 inc VAT every month, if you agree to its terms. As you do, then you might like to decide whether you make enough daytime calls at the "penalty rate" to make it worthwhile paying the extra £4.99 to go on the Anytime package.
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #26 - Feb 4th, 2010 at 3:26pm
 
Dave wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 3:03pm:
sherbert, you are on Evening and Weekend Calling Plan and get it for the price of the Weekend Plan which is the basic line rental option. For this, you have signed up for a so-called 12 month rolling contract whereby after 12 months, you are automatically signed up for another 12 months.

BT is essentially buying you into the rolling contract. That is, you get the discount of £2.99 inc VAT every month, if you agree to its terms. As you do, then you might like to decide whether you make enough daytime calls at the "penalty rate" to make it worthwhile paying the extra £4.99 to go on the Anytime package.




Yes indeed I am on 'week end and evening' as I make very few day time calls and if I do I use my mobile where I get 75 free minutes a month. Ok I know I can't dial 0845 & 0870 numbers for 'free' from my mobile. I agree I am on the '12 month rolling contract'. They do send you an email before it runs out giving you the option of 'pulling out', if you do nothing you just carry on. I guess that is what a rolling contract is.

I am sure I could get it cheaper, my BT quarterly bill comes to about £75, and that includes line rental, a few chargable calls (about £1.50 a quarter) Broadband and VAT. That is just under £6 a week and for the amount of fun and use I get out of my computer, and for the use of my telephone, for the price of a couple of pints, I don't think it is dear. I don't think BT is as bad as everyone makes out. Also their help lines are now 0800 or 0808 and to tell you the truth, I very rarely phone them. You have to speak as you find and to tell you the truth, BT have never caused me any problems.

Anyway I know many people on our site disagrees with me.
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #27 - Feb 4th, 2010 at 3:33pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 3:26pm:
Yes indeed I am on 'week end and evening' as I make very few day time calls and if I do I use my mobile where I get 75 free minutes a month. …

Mobile inclusive minutes are not "free", but part of the package. You say you "get" 75 minutes a month, but that is what you pay for. The less of the call allowance used, the more the cost of each inclusive minute sets you back. There will be a point where you use only a certain amount of these minutes that it will be cheaper to pay for these calls as you use them on a "per minute" basis.
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #28 - Feb 4th, 2010 at 3:57pm
 
Dave wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 3:33pm:
Mobile inclusive minutes are not "free", but part of the package. You say you "get" 75 minutes a month, but that is what you pay for. The less of the call allowance used, the more the cost of each inclusive minute sets you back. There will be a point where you use only a certain amount of these minutes that it will be cheaper to pay for these calls as you use them on a "per minute" basis.



Yup, I agree with with everything say Dave. My mobile contact costs about £45 a year (less than a pound a week) for my package, so I still think I have got a reasonable deal.
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Re: BT Evening period changes - April 2010
Reply #29 - Feb 4th, 2010 at 4:02pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 1:02pm:
The point about the web page for new customers is that they get a free first year upgrade to Evening and Weekend if they sign up for 12 months.

All three packages are also available without a 12 month commitment, but on different terms, which are not mentioned on the page. The only options presented are those for a 12 month contract. Given the special offer, it would not make sense to sign up to Evening and Weekend for the first 12 months at the normal price, because you can get it for free.

Right, but what I don't understand is why they bother to offer the Evening and Weekend package as a free upgrade if they aren't going to promote it at all. Surely the point of giving a good deal is to attract customers, not to reveal it to them after they've already signed up. There is no mention of this free upgrade, unless you've found a different page from me. (Edit: actually, I think I've answered the question myself lower down: it's to retain existing customers by making them take 12 month contracts)


SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 2:42pm:
sherbert wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 1:20pm:
So what is the normal price SCV? I have been on 'evening and week end' for a couple of years and they have never ever charged me for this package, indeed on their web site they advertise this package as £0 per month plus the £11.54 line rental

Yes, I understand that the "free evenings" offer is sometimes extended beyond the first year.

This is not, and has never been, an introductory 12-month offer. The deal is that if you sign up for 12 months, you get the free evening calls. At the end of the 12 months, you automatically get signed up for another 12 months unless you tell them otherwise in advance. The benefit to BT is presumably that it makes it harder for people to switch to another provider.

I found the following pages offering this deal through Google, but goodness only knows where it is linked from on the BT site:

www.bt.com/dealterms
www.bt.com/friendsdeal


Dave wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 3:03pm:
I understand that all BT "packages" have a minimum 12 month contract.

I think that's only the case now if you have a new line installed by BT, not just if you switch your calls to them. The pages linked earlier for new customers certainly say no minimum contract.


SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 4th, 2010 at 2:42pm:
Given the above, you can look on the "normal price" in two ways. I say that
the normal price is Anytime, with a discount available for those who do not use their phone during weekday daytime (up to 7pm). This includes all "normal" calls to landlines, although those who take the discount and then make calls are penalised.
That is how I see BT presenting its position - how else can it justify continually increasing the cost of non-inclusive calls at 30% per annum, whilst the only package price increase was to accommodate the inclusion of 0845 calls.

A 0844 user would say that
the line rental includes "normal" calls to landlines, except during the weekday daytime, although you can pay extra to avoid the rip-off rates that BT charges for normal calls during the day.
They could add that
callers to their 0844 numbers are not only paying less, but they can also avoid the scam of an additional charge for inclusive daytime calls, because the 0844 calls are not included. Many people are out and about on their mobile phones during the day, so this extra charge is pointless anyway, because mobile calls are not included.
I have colour-coded my view against that which I am fighting, so as to make my position clear.

What all this shows is that the telecoms market is very complex, and rarely is any situation black and white. Back before the distinction between local and national rate calls was removed, and long before inclusive calls were invented, a group such as ours might have campaigned for public services to use 0845 numbers. When inclusive calls and cheaper rates for geographical calls came in, it really motivated me to campaign against NGNs, which were then a rip-off. Now the market is changing again. There are still plenty of good reasons to campaign against NGNs, but there are also some people for whom certain NGNs may actually be cheaper to call at certain times of day. One of our aims should be to educate the public more about the cost of different types of calls so that they can choose the best number to dial.

I was certainly not suggesting that it's good for organisations to use NGNs so that people can avoid paying BT's geographical rates in the daytime. What I was suggesting is that people not on the Anytime package should be encouraged to use 18185 if they occasionally make calls in the daytime, rather than being ripped off by either (1) paying for Anytime; (2) paying the BT "penalty" rate; (3) paying to call an NGN.
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