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Inclusive calls aren't free (Read 41,348 times)
sherbert
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Inclusive calls aren't free
Feb 9th, 2010 at 5:29pm
 
ScarletPimpernel wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 5:04pm:
[

I'm not saying what you are trying to achieve is incorrect, however the result of publishing 01xx numbers only encourages people to call them as they believe that they will be getting a cheaper call or in some packages a free call.


Name us a package that gives you a free call..... There isn't one. .....Inclusive calls maybe but never a free call. There is a difference.

Edited:
This thread has been split off from the thread Cost of 0870 vs calling blocked local numbers.
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« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:25am by Dave »  
 
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idb
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #1 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:30am
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 5:29pm:
Name us a package that gives you a free call..... There isn't one. .....Inclusive calls maybe but never a free call. There is a difference.
While I am no longer familiar with UK telephone packages, I do consider that my package here can accurately be described as providing free calls. Basic phone service (which could be described in British terms as line rental) here, excluding taxes and fees, is $13.68 per month. I consider this to be the cost of providing a line into my location which further provides a dial tone and an ability to make and receive calls, either through the local provider or through any provider of my choice. Some people simply need a line for signalling purposes, whether it be alarm-related or some other facility. It just happens that basic phone service also allows calls to me made to anywhere within the local call area at no cost. Furthermore, such calls are neither metered nor itemized. The phone bill does not list such calls nor does it provide the number or type of calls made. This is usual throughout this country for residential lines, and any such description of free or inclusive calls is not generally used as a marketing tool; rather it is a given that free calls come with basic phone service. So, as I have stated before, with basic phone service, one could happily make a call for 31*24*60 minutes in a typical month (which may well have been popular during dial-up internet imes) and no one would really care. There would be no record of the call on the bill as there is no itemization. Now is this call free or inclusive? My belief is that it can correctly be designated as free. Whilst it can also be considered as inclusive, the free description is not, I would argue, incorrect.
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« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:26am by Dave »  

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sherbert
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #2 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 8:47am
 
idb wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:30am:
sherbert wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 5:29pm:
Name us a package that gives you a free call..... There isn't one. .....Inclusive calls maybe but never a free call. There is a difference.
While I am no longer familiar with UK telephone packages, I do consider that my package here can accurately be described as providing free calls. Basic phone service (which could be described in British terms as line rental) here, excluding taxes and fees, is $13.68 per month. I consider this to be the cost of providing a line into my location which further provides a dial tone and an ability to make and receive calls, either through the local provider or through any provider of my choice. Some people simply need a line for signalling purposes, whether it be alarm-related or some other facility. It just happens that basic phone service also allows calls to me made to anywhere within the local call area at no cost. Furthermore, such calls are neither metered nor itemized. The phone bill does not list such calls nor does it provide the number or type of calls made. This is usual throughout this country for residential lines, and any such description of free or inclusive calls is not generally used as a marketing tool; rather it is a given that free calls come with basic phone service. So, as I have stated before, with basic phone service, one could happily make a call for 31*24*60 minutes in a typical month (which may well have been popular during dial-up internet imes) and no one would really care. There would be no record of the call on the bill as there is no itemization. Now is this call free or inclusive? My belief is that it can correctly be designated as free. Whilst it can also be considered as inclusive, the free description is not, I would argue, incorrect.



Well, here we will have to disagree I am afraid. BT do indeed itemise all the 'inclusive' calls on my bill as does o2 on my mobile bill. Last year BT increased their line rental by (I think) a pound a month. At the same time they announced that the 0845 & 0870 numbers would be included in the calling plan which you belong to. If they had not have done this, would they have increased the line rental? Probably not. So I and also many others on this site, maintain that any calls that are covered on a calling plan are 'inclusive' and not 'free' as whenever BT offer 'something for nothing' the line rental increases to cover their costs.

Anyway that is my interpretaion of it and no doubt others will put their views here.
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loddon
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #3 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 10:32am
 
Entirely agree with you Sherbert.    "Free" is a marketing term used by large companies to tease or entice , some would say, the gullible, but as you say, we all pay for these calls one way or another.    The phone companies do not allow calls passed between them to be free of charge -- they still pass originating and terminating fees between each other and account for every cotton pickin' minute in their own accounts and inter-company charges, as I understand things.  (Please correct me if my understanding is incorrect).    They must then generate revenue somehow to cover these unavoidable costs -- so they may indeed be paid for out of the line rental charges.

I am sure they must also monitor very carefully the totals and distribution of call traffic as part of their network utilisation and capacity management activities.   It would not do to have callers unable to connect due to lack of available line capacity.

I would say there are no "free" calls in the UK, (the USA may be different), there are only "inclusive" calls.
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Barbara
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #4 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 10:39am
 
Yes, I have a 24/7 inclusive call package and all my calls are itemised, those without charge being shown as "free" (although I pay a fee each month on top of line rental to have 24/7 inclusive calls) and the relevant charge being shown for other calls, almost exclusively in our case to mobiles, together with date, time, duration.
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sherbert
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #5 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 10:53am
 
loddon wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 10:32am:
I am sure they must also monitor very carefully the totals and distribution of call traffic as part of their network utilisation and capacity management activities.   It would not do to have callers unable to connect due to lack of available line capacity.



Indeed they do, as BT have just announced that the 'evening period' is changing from 6pm to 6am to 7pm to 7am. (From April 1st) They stated in their 'blurb' that people make very short calls between 6pm & 7pm (I guess people come home from work at that time and confirm their evening arrangements). So yes, they must be monitored.
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #6 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:31pm
 
loddon wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 10:32am:
Entirely agree with you Sherbert.    "Free" is a marketing term used by large companies to tease or entice , some would say, the gullible, but as you say, we all pay for these calls one way or another.    The phone companies do not allow calls passed between them to be free of charge -- they still pass originating and terminating fees between each other and account for every cotton pickin' minute in their own accounts and inter-company charges, as I understand things.  (Please correct me if my understanding is incorrect).    They must then generate revenue somehow to cover these unavoidable costs -- so they may indeed be paid for out of the line rental charges.

I am sure they must also monitor very carefully the totals and distribution of call traffic as part of their network utilisation and capacity management activities.   It would not do to have callers unable to connect due to lack of available line capacity.

I would say there are no "free" calls in the UK, (the USA may be different), there are only "inclusive" calls.
I would agree about the inappropriate use of the term marketing term 'free' in many situations, however for basic phone provision, the term 'free' is generally not used here in the context of local calls. It is generally accepted (that is, no additional marketing or qualification is needed) that if one pays for line rental then one receives free (not billed, not metered, not itemized) local calls. I have yet to see an advertisement by AT&T along the lines of "get our plan and make as many calls as you want" in a local call context. For long distance, it is different and there are similar inclusive plans that I believe exist in the UK.

Whilst this country has its faults, it has adopted a sensible approach to telecoms, in terms of numbering, charging and regulation. About the only criticism that is generally made is the strange array of taxes and fees that vary by municipality, but for $14 a month, one can call anywhere within a local call area without having concern for hanging up after sixty or seventy minutes just because of a pathetic rule.

As I said, I have no comment about the description of 'free' calls within UK plans, but I do contend that phone packages here come with free calls.
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« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:26am by Dave »  

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derrick
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #7 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:56pm
 
idb wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:30am:
sherbert wrote on Feb 9th, 2010 at 5:29pm:
Name us a package that gives you a free call..... There isn't one. .....Inclusive calls maybe but never a free call. There is a difference.
While I am no longer familiar with UK telephone packages, I do consider that my package here can accurately be described as providing free calls. Basic phone service (which could be described in British terms as line rental) here, excluding taxes and fees, is $13.68 per month. I consider this to be the cost of providing a line into my location which further provides a dial tone and an ability to make and receive calls, either through the local provider or through any provider of my choice. Some people simply need a line for signalling purposes, whether it be alarm-related or some other facility. It just happens that basic phone service also allows calls to me made to anywhere within the local call area at no cost. Furthermore, such calls are neither metered nor itemized. The phone bill does not list such calls nor does it provide the number or type of calls made. This is usual throughout this country for residential lines, and any such description of free or inclusive calls is not generally used as a marketing tool; rather it is a given that free calls come with basic phone service. So, as I have stated before, with basic phone service, one could happily make a call for 31*24*60 minutes in a typical month (which may well have been popular during dial-up internet imes) and no one would really care. There would be no record of the call on the bill as there is no itemization. Now is this call free or inclusive? My belief is that it can correctly be designated as free. Whilst it can also be considered as inclusive, the free description is not, I would argue, incorrect.


Sorry you are wrong, your calls are INCLUSIVE, they are not "free", try not paying your "$13.68 per month" and see if you will still be supplied with "free" calls, the answer is, you won't, therefore by definition your calls are INCLUSIVE!
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idb
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #8 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 1:00pm
 
derrick wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:56pm:
Sorry you are wrong, [...]


I'm not, trust me! My local line provides me with free local calls, period. No qualification. No restriction. They are free of any charge. The $13.68 I pay is only for the rental of the line.

What happens in the UK is entirely different to what happens here.
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sherbert
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #9 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 1:08pm
 
idb wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 1:00pm:
derrick wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:56pm:
Sorry you are wrong, [...]


I'm not, trust me! My local line provides me with free local calls, period. No qualification. No restriction. They are free of any charge. The $13.68 I pay is only for the rental of the line.

What happens in the UK is entirely different to what happens here.



What we are trying to say is, if your telephone provider charged you for what you call free calls, the rental charge would be lower. So therefore your calls are inclusive and not free, however they wish to market it.
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idb
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #10 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 1:25pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 1:08pm:
idb wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 1:00pm:
derrick wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:56pm:
Sorry you are wrong, [...]


I'm not, trust me! My local line provides me with free local calls, period. No qualification. No restriction. They are free of any charge. The $13.68 I pay is only for the rental of the line.

What happens in the UK is entirely different to what happens here.



What we are trying to say is, if your telephone provider charged you for what you call free calls, the rental charge would be lower. So therefore your calls are inclusive and not free, however they wish to market it.
I will try once more, and leave it at that. I pay a certain amount for the provision of a phone line. By default, the provision of such line provides certain features. One of which is the ability to receive calls. Another is the ability to call, as many times as one wishes, for as long as one wishes, and however one wishes, be it a voice, fax or data call, to anywhere within the local call area without incurring any charge.


My cellular plan *is* an inclusive plan as there is restriction and qualification. My land line is not as it is not marketed as such. There is no 'you can use 31*24*60 minutes per month' or even 1000 or 5000 minutes per month or any fair use policy.

If I don't pay the $13.68, then I lose the ability to, inter alia, makle free calls to local subscribers.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, and I suspect you have little practical experience of the North American telecoms market. If you ever visit, then perhaps ask some random individuals as to whether their home phone service has inclusive, free, or other calls. I can almost guarantee that no one has ever even considered the question, and assumes that if a line is provided, then local calls are provided. Free!
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derrick
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #11 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 2:04pm
 
idb wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 1:00pm:
derrick wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 12:56pm:
Sorry you are wrong, [...]


I'm not, trust me! My local line provides me with free local calls, period. No qualification. No restriction. They are free of any charge. The $13.68 I pay is only for the rental of the line.

What happens in the UK is entirely different to what happens here.



Nothing to do with the Country, you pay a monthly premium that INCLUDES some phone calls,(not "free"), if you don't pay the monthly premium then you don't get the calls!
How are they "free" if you need to if you need to part with cash to receive them?

Free = at no cost!
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Dave
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #12 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 2:21pm
 
derrick wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 2:04pm:
Nothing to do with the Country, you pay a monthly premium that INCLUDES some phone calls,(not "free"), if you don't pay the monthly premium then you don't get the calls!
How are they "free" if you need to if you need to part with cash to receive them?

Free = at no cost!

I agree with idb here. In the UK, inclusive calls are an add-on, as it were, to the basic telephone service. He is saying that in the US they (local calls) are part of the provision of a telephone line.

derrick, with your logic, that means that "buy one get one free" offers are not such. Is it acceptable for a car dealership to promote "free insurance" when one purchases one of their motors?

Of course nothing is "free" per se, but where do we draw the line?
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #13 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 3:56pm
 
derrick wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 2:04pm:
Free = at no cost!

If one is to accept that definition of the word as being strict and absolute, then the word can never be used at all. It is always possible to identify some type of cost.

In fact the word "free" is meaningless without some implied or stated qualification, as it refers to the absence of "something". There is always room for a potentially interesting debate around what it is that is implied.

In the specific context of telephone call charges, it refers to the absence of a charge for each call. It is therefore possible to say that one may pay a monthly fee to get calls free (of the particular individual call charge that would otherwise apply). Where there is perhaps an attempt to conceal a specific cost, it may be necessary to point out how this freedom has to be bought, but one cannot necessarily say that it was wholly inappropriate to use the word "free".

Every freedom has some cost! Only a fool would seek to deny, or fail to acknowledge, this fact. Only a total cynic would thereby deny the existence of any freedom. Words (like our freedoms) are available for us to use as we will. It is those who hate them who seek to take them away from us, through fear that we may use them in ways of which they do not approve.

I find it helpful to use the phrase "free at the point of need", when referring to the NHS. It may however take very many words and examples to explain exactly what this means. I may often take the trouble to do so, however I may often use the phrase anyway.
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sherbert
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #14 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 4:03pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 3:56pm:
I find it helpful to use the phrase "free at the point of need", when referring to the NHS. It may however take very many words and examples to explain exactly what this means. I may often take the trouble to do so, however I may often use the phrase anyway.


The NHS has never  been free. If only it was and we would not be paying National Insurance contributions and other taxes, like hospital car parking, that fund the NHS
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