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Inclusive calls aren't free (Read 41,347 times)
SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #15 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 4:26pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 4:03pm:
The NHS has never  been free. If only it was and we would not be paying National Insurance contributions and other taxes, like hospital car parking, that fund the NHS

Thanks for this, Sherbert. After a momentary pause for thought, I believe that I understand your position. The NHS continues to retain a strong legacy of the position that you advocate, from the past, however for most of us times have moved on. Many see the situation moving on again to produce the situation that you support, however you and I are thereby set in total opposition.
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sherbert
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #16 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 4:39pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 4:26pm:
sherbert wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 4:03pm:
The NHS has never  been free. If only it was and we would not be paying National Insurance contributions and other taxes, like hospital car parking, that fund the NHS

Thanks for this, Sherbert. After a momentary pause for thought, I believe that I understand your position. The NHS continues to retain a strong legacy of the position that you advocate, from the past, however for most of us times have moved on. Many see the situation moving on again to produce the situation that you support, however you and I are thereby set in total opposition.



So, from what I can understand from that garbled response, you are saying that the NHS is indeed free?
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loddon
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #17 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 4:56pm
 
Surely the concept of the NHS was originally, and it still is, that each shall receive according to his need (and free of charge at the point of need) while each shall contribute or pay (via his taxes) according to his means?    It was always recognised that the NHS had to be paid for somehow in order to enable everyone to benefit from it no matter how impoverished they may be.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #18 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 4:58pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 4:39pm:
So, from what I can understand from that garbled response, you are saying that the NHS is indeed free?

Under the terms of the NHS Constitution, services are delivered without charge, except where sanctioned by parliament - if that is what is meant by the NHS being "free" - then Yes.

It may be helpful for readers to understand what is meant by a NHS not funded by taxation and income from use of excess land.
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sherbert
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #19 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 6:24pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 4:58pm:
sherbert wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 4:39pm:
So, from what I can understand from that garbled response, you are saying that the NHS is indeed free?

Under the terms of the NHS Constitution, services are delivered without charge, except where sanctioned by parliament - if that is what is meant by the NHS being "free" - then Yes.

It may be helpful for readers to understand what is meant by a NHS not funded by taxation and income from use of excess land.


From the C.A.B. site     http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_money/benefits/national_insurance_contr...



National insurance contributions also go towards the costs of the National Health Service.


So it can't be free.
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #20 - Feb 10th, 2010 at 6:59pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 6:24pm:
So it can't be free.

Can we please politely establish the level at which this discussion is being conducted, and its purpose.

For the purposes of this discussion, just what do we mean by "free"? or are we trying to understand the different ways in which the word may be used?

There was an earlier proposal of a free NHS not funded by taxation. Are we looking to understand how that would work?

The CAB document deals with the difference between contributory and non-contributory benefit entitlements. All NHS services are non-contributory, so far as I am aware. Do we mean the word "free" to mark the difference between contributory and non-contributory benefits? If so, then what does this have to do with the NHS?

Some particular NHS services are subject to charges, from which some are exempt, including beneficiaries of some benefits. Is this what we are trying to get to?

Some providers of NHS services breach the terms of the NHS Constitution by using revenue sharing telephone numbers. Are we arguing about whether this is perhaps acceptable, because the principle of "free at the point of need" does not apply at all?

There are some who argue that it is unacceptable to incur any incidental cost whatsoever in accessing NHS services, e.g. the cost of car parking or the cost of a normal telephone call. Is it being argued that for the NHS to be free, all incidental expenses incurred should be reimbursed, or that all the necessary services, e.g. transport and telephones, should be provided at the expense of the NHS?
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #21 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 12:17am
 
derrick wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 2:04pm:
Free = at no cost!
And, in the context of this discussion and by local convention and the general public perception, this is correct - the calls are free, that is there is no cost for making an unlimited number of local calls. We can spend hours debating the ins and outs of the word 'free', and, as is often pointed out, little, if anything is truly free'. In the context of this thread, however, I will maintain that the calling plan to which I subscribe provides free local calls. It is a fair and accurate description.

I have absolutely no choice in the local calling provision. My plan, Complete Choice Enhanced, combines basic phone service with eleven calling features (possibly known as star services in the UK) shown below. The AT&T basic phone service is the lowest available tariff (*) to a residential subscriber here. I cannot remove local calling. I cannot unbundle or exclude a potential 44640 local monthly minutes from the plan. The free local calls are, if you like, a side-effect of having basic phone service. I have not requested any service other than for AT&T to provide me with a line (plus my selected calling features), and that is exactly what I get for my money - a line (plus my selected calling features).

Looking at my latest bill, there is no mention of local calling anywhere on the invoice, just an indication that I have a residential line (plus some of my selected calling features; no idea why all are not shown) on the $26 plan indicated:

Monthly Service - Jan 11 thru Feb 10

1. Complete Choice® Enhanced 26.00 (**)

Residential Line
Three-Way Calling
Call Waiting ID
Call Return
Caller-ID Name-Number Delivery
Anonymous Call Blocking

Nowhere on the bill is there any indication of having made any local calls. The only calls itemized are the 119 minutes of LD calls that I made, for which I pay $4 per month for unlimited (note, not free as I have a choice) nationwide calls. I could make 44600 minutes of calls to Los Angeles should I so desire, at a cost of $4 - not free.

People may require a line for various reasons - emergency 911 use, alarm signalling, a safety net in case of power outage (common here), an incoming service only, and for various other requirements. Each line has the ability to makle an unlimited number of free local calls.



* Some, perhaps most, perhaps all, states offer lower cost plans for low-income families. This may be determined on a county basis, I really don't know. An example in California provides an incoming line only for a couple of dollars per month and an incoming line with sixty minutes of local calls for around three dollars per month. I have no idea what is available in FL and whether it is determined by the county or by the state.

** Complete Choice Enhanced combines the $13.68 basic phone service with eleven other calling features: Caller ID, Call Waiting ID  OR Call Waiting, Call Return, Three-Way Calling, Call Forwarding OR Remote Access to Call Forwarding, Call Blocking, Anonymous Call Blocking, Speed Dial 8, Call Trace, RingMaster®1 OR RingMaster®2, Selective Call Forwarding


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« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:29am by Dave »  

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derrick
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #22 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 10:41am
 
Dave wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 2:21pm:
derrick wrote on Feb 10th, 2010 at 2:04pm:
Nothing to do with the Country, you pay a monthly premium that INCLUDES some phone calls,(not "free"), if you don't pay the monthly premium then you don't get the calls!
How are they "free" if you need to if you need to part with cash to receive them?

Free = at no cost!

I agree with idb here. In the UK, inclusive calls are an add-on, as it were, to the basic telephone service. He is saying that in the US they (local calls) are part of the provision of a telephone line.

derrick, with your logic, that means that "buy one get one free" offers are not such. Is it acceptable for a car dealership to promote "free insurance" when one purchases one of their motors?

Of course nothing is "free" per se, but where do we draw the line?



Yes BOGOFF's are not free, you need to part with cash to get the "free" product, so not "free", the term should be something like " buy one and we will give another one", or why don't they make it simple and just halve the price!

Same with your car insurance comment, if you don't part with money for the car you will not get "free" insurance, so it is INCLUSIVE, with conditions, i.e. buy the car or you don't get it!

ibd, sorry we will have to agree to disagree, with my parting,(repeated), shot, if you don't part with cash you will receive NO calls, so as you are paying money out your calls are INCLUSIVE!
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #23 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 1:42pm
 
It seems that after "Big Brother" and "Room 101" it is time for "Newspeak" to come from the pages of 1984 into common language.

The improper application of "political correctness" causes some to urge for words that have the potential for misuse or for causing offence to be removed from the language.

Perhaps those who I am implicitly accusing of supporting Winston Smith's work at Minitrue would like to offer a meaningful definition of the word "free", with examples of where it could be used properly.

(Wikipedia contains articles that may be of use to those who are unfamiliar with the book and wish to fully understand my comments)
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derrick
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #24 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 2:32pm
 
I have just replied to a letter addressed to me for a quote for home insurance, I took up the offer as it offered a free road atlas for doing the quote, the phone number was freephone, (0800), the quote took about 5 minutes and the quote and atlas will  be posted out to me with no obligation to take out the policy, so on the assumption that I don't,(which I won't as the quote was quite high), I will receive a road atlas for absolutely no cost to me, i.e. free.

Now I have received similar offers over the years and in most cases received the free gift, (as countless other people throughout the country will have also), that is the definition of "free", at no cost, unless you want to count the 5 minutes of time I spent on the phone, but that would be taking pedantic a bit to far!
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sherbert
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #25 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 4:29pm
 
derrick wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 2:32pm:
I have just replied to a letter addressed to me for a quote for home insurance, I took up the offer as it offered a free road atlas for doing the quote, the phone number was freephone, (0800), the quote took about 5 minutes and the quote and atlas will  be posted out to me with no obligation to take out the policy, so on the assumption that I don't,(which I won't as the quote was quite high), I will receive a road atlas for absolutely no cost to me, i.e. free.

Now I have received similar offers over the years and in most cases received the free gift, (as countless other people throughout the country will have also), that is the definition of "free", at no cost, unless you want to count the 5 minutes of time I spent on the phone, but that would be taking pedantic a bit to far!



That, derrick, if I may so, is a perfect description of what, you, I & others have been trying to put accross. Thanks
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #26 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 6:04pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 4:29pm:
derrick wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 2:32pm:
absolutely no cost to me, i.e. free.

That, derrick, if I may so, is a perfect description of what, you, I & others have been trying to put accross. Thanks

The point is well made. I regret that I cannot myself accept so narrow a definition, as I value use of the word "free" in contexts where it is not possible to take advantage of the situation by ensuring that the costs are exclusively carried by others, especially when that is not the intention behind the offer. I also think it acceptable for the word "free" to be used in a relative, rather than an absolute, sense.

The example given illustrates two aspects of what I see as being the ugly side of consumerism, i.e. looking at issues only from a very narrow personal financial perspective and the fact that those who take out policies with the insurance company in question have to pay for atlases being provided to those who do not. This is no great issue however, because the cost of providing the quote by telephone is probably greater than the cost of the atlas, so the "free" quote could be said to be more important that the "free" atlas. The opportunity to watch an entertaining TV advertisement could be said to be an even more valuable "free" gift, given that one does not purchase the product or service being promoted.

Sorry guys, I can see what you on about, but you cannot steal the word "free" to only fit your agenda. That would be "newspeak". I am still waiting to hear something of how a "free" NHS would work under these terms.
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #27 - Feb 11th, 2010 at 11:39pm
 
derrick wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 10:41am:
ibd, sorry we will have to agree to disagree, with my parting,(repeated), shot, if you don't part with cash you will receive NO calls, so as you are paying money out your calls are INCLUSIVE!
If I don't part with the cash, I lose the ability to make free local calls. No more, no less. To me, it's a very straightforward concept.
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derrick
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #28 - Feb 13th, 2010 at 9:26am
 
idb wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 11:39pm:
derrick wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 10:41am:
ibd, sorry we will have to agree to disagree, with my parting,(repeated), shot, if you don't part with cash you will receive NO calls, so as you are paying money out your calls are INCLUSIVE!
If I don't part with the cash, I lose the ability to make free(INCLUSIVE) local calls. No more, no less. To me, it's a very straightforward concept.



You have, on your own admission, accepted what I have said; "If I don't part with cash", by "parting with  cash" you make any product associated with that cash INCLUSIVE, and if you don't "part with cash" you don't receive ANY calls, so they are not "free".
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #29 - Feb 13th, 2010 at 11:34am
 
derrick wrote on Feb 13th, 2010 at 9:26am:
idb wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 11:39pm:
derrick wrote on Feb 11th, 2010 at 10:41am:
ibd, sorry we will have to agree to disagree, with my parting,(repeated), shot, if you don't part with cash you will receive NO calls, so as you are paying money out your calls are INCLUSIVE!
If I don't part with the cash, I lose the ability to make free(INCLUSIVE) local calls. No more, no less. To me, it's a very straightforward concept.



You have, on your own admission, accepted what I have said; "If I don't part with cash", by "parting with  cash" you make any product associated with that cash INCLUSIVE, and if you don't "part with cash" you don't receive ANY calls, so they are not "free".
Your argument is nonsensical and flawed and your definition too narrow. There is little benefit in continuing this aspect of the discussion. All I would suggest is that you may wish to carry out a little research into local calling provision here and the legal obligations and heavy regulation that define such provision across fifty separate entities. It is a very different beast to what you may be familiar with.
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