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Inclusive calls aren't free (Read 41,349 times)
SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #45 - Feb 15th, 2010 at 1:37pm
 
I was hoping to engage in discussion with those who oppose the NHS, rather than in analysis of the differences found on either side of the Atlantic, however I think that the two may come together.

Contrary to what adoption of the American concept of freedom is doing to views of the NHS, one has to accept that any publicly-funded system must severely limit the opportunity for "choice". This makes it unable to be adopted as a serious principle, although the availability of some modest degree of selection between readily available alternatives is obviously worthwhile. One can never have the freedom in spending somebody else's money that one has in spending one's own. This is where the libertarian and the socialist clash over the concept of freedom. The former demands freedom to spend as one wishes, the latter seeks freedom from treatable illness for all.

Foundation of the NHS represented victory in principle for the latter view. Conflict has continued to rage, with the present emphasis on quality and choice suggesting that the tide may be turning, even though there is a reluctance to accept that the principles no longer hold true. Introduction of market principles as a way of improving efficiency and effectiveness has a certain logic, however one has to fear that the downsides introduced by the overheads and distortions of purpose that flow from a market may prevent any net gain.

Obama is repeating what Clinton tried to achieve but failed - a modest degree of intervention in a liberal market for health services. I do not believe that the US will ever be ready to adopt the socialist principle that the UK has (perhaps most oddly) accepted through a consensus that remains in place. I fear that dilution of the principle in the UK, to satisfy those who find anything associated with the "s" word unacceptable (notably those in New Labour), may ultimately lead to its saturation.

It is only those who hold firmly to the principle of "free at the point of need" who could object to the imposition of a relatively modest charge to fund additional telephone system features through use of a revenue sharing telephone number. I cannot think when this could ever become an issue in the US.
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« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:32am by Dave »  
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #46 - Feb 15th, 2010 at 2:15pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 15th, 2010 at 1:08pm:
Perhaps the only people who do get it totally free are those who enter the United Kingdom and use our facilities without ever having paid any contributions.

As those who have not (previously) paid taxes would have to pay the premium associated with calling a revenue sharing telephone number, is this an argument that use of revenue sharing telephone numbers to subsidise the cost of providing NHS treatment represents a fairer way of paying for if?

Should high earners, who pay more tax, those who have retired from employment, having paid NI throughout their working life and those who travel to hospital by car, and therefore take advantage of car parking facilities, get proportionately more NHS treatment than the poor, the young, life-long carers who are exempt from NI contributions and those who travel to hospital by public transport or ambulance?

We note that Great Ormond Street Hospital, which treats those who pay little or no tax, seeks to remove itself from the NHS by spending money on TV advertising to attract donations. (In fact it gets around NHS regulations by operating through a parallel organisation called the GOSH Children's Charity.)

How, after accepting the glaringly obvious point that nothing is absolutely free of any cost, can I fail to continually disagree with this nonsense?
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sherbert
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #47 - Feb 15th, 2010 at 2:53pm
 
SilentCallsVictim wrote on Feb 15th, 2010 at 2:15pm:
How, after accepting the glaringly obvious point that nothing is absolutely free of any cost, can I fail to continually disagree with this nonsense?


Perhaps, if as you see it everyone else's opinions as nonsnese, not only here but also on other threads, we had all better leave this forum as there seems little point in anyone having any opinions, as in your opinion, you are the only one that is right.
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #48 - Feb 15th, 2010 at 3:00pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 15th, 2010 at 2:53pm:
Perhaps, if as you see it everyone else's opinions as nonsnese, not only here but also on other threads, we had all better leave this forum as there seems little point in anyone having any opinions, as in your opinion, you are the only one that is right.

sherbert, can you answer two questions that have been in my mind for the last few days:

Are you suggesting that it is incorrect to use "free" in respect of NHS services as the stand at the moment?

What you point out is that the NHS is not "free", and I accept that it is not "free" as in without any cost. This leads me to ask, are you suggesting that it should be free to all without paying anything (whether through direct charges such as payment for parking or a charge for having an operation or through taxation) ?
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sherbert
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #49 - Feb 15th, 2010 at 3:30pm
 
Dave wrote on Feb 15th, 2010 at 3:00pm:
sherbert wrote on Feb 15th, 2010 at 2:53pm:
Perhaps, if as you see it everyone else's opinions as nonsnese, not only here but also on other threads, we had all better leave this forum as there seems little point in anyone having any opinions, as in your opinion, you are the only one that is right.

sherbert, can you answer two questions that have been in my mind for the last few days:

Are you suggesting that it is incorrect to use "free" in respect of NHS services as the stand at the moment?

What you point out is that the NHS is not "free", and I accept that it is not "free" as in without any cost. This leads me to ask, are you suggesting that it should be free to all without paying anything (whether through direct charges such as payment for parking or a charge for having an operation or through taxation) ?



In answer to your first question Dave.......Yes

In answer to your second question, I have made no comment on that, all what I am saying is that SCV's is wrong in saying that the NHS is free.
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« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:33am by Dave »  
 
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #50 - Feb 15th, 2010 at 3:42pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 15th, 2010 at 3:30pm:
In answer to your first question Dave.......Yes

In answer to your second question, I have made no comment on that, all what I am saying is that SCV's is wrong in saying that the NHS is free.
Whilst of course you are free to hold any opinion that you wish, it appears that you maintain one specific definition as absolute. Despite qualification being provided, despite context being used, despite commonly accepted norms, despite reasoned argument, you maintain a stubborn and narrow-minded belief that if as much as one cent or one penny changes hands in whatever capacity, then one cannot describe something as free. I find this attitude to be ridiculous an d shallow.
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« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:33am by Dave »  

As from November 21, 2013, I no longer participate in the forum and am unable to receive private messages.
 
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #51 - Feb 15th, 2010 at 3:46pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 15th, 2010 at 2:53pm:
Perhaps, if as you see it everyone else's opinions as nonsnese, not only here but also on other threads, we had all better leave this forum as there seems little point in anyone having any opinions, as in your opinion, you are the only one that is right.

Each is entitled to believe in the ideas that they put forward. I hope to benefit from ideas put forward by others. None of us gain anything from simple statements of agreement or disagreement.

The suggestions that I described as nonsense were perhaps a reasoned conclusion from the very limited comments made in a previous posting - or perhaps not. If contributors wish to withdraw from discussion then we will never know for certain.

If brief comments are not properly expanded to address the point under discussion, then they may be open to misinterpretation. Have I understood the point correctly? - I understood an implied suggestion that the benefit derived from the NHS should be proportionate to the contribution made, but I may be totally wrong. If I am correct then this would seem to be an argument in favour of use of revenue sharing telephone numbers.

If I am wrong, then the relevance of the level of contributions to the funding of all public expenditure needs to be explained. The issue of whether receipt of NHS services was a contributory or non-contributory benefit was raised earlier in the discussion, but never concluded. I hope we all understand that hypothecation of taxation is a suggestion that is still being pressed by some against the strong will of the Treasury, even though some hint at it by the use of misleading phrases such as "death tax".
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« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:33am by Dave »  
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SilentCallsVictim
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Re: Inclusive calls aren't free
Reply #52 - Feb 15th, 2010 at 4:01pm
 
sherbert wrote on Feb 15th, 2010 at 3:30pm:
In answer to your second question, I have made no comment on that, all what I am saying is that SCV's is wrong in saying that the NHS is free.

(I read this after drafting my previous posting.)

I do not want to move from debating the meaning of "free" to debating the meaning of "is", but there may be some deliberate confusion being created around use of this word.

We may each hold all manner of opinions, when we choose to "say" them in a public discussion forum other readers would perhaps generally appreciate, and perhaps have a right to expect, that they be accompanied by some comment or explanation. If we are here for discussion, then let us discuss.

I repeat - if the NHS is not (in some sense) "free" then how may one oppose use of revenue sharing telephone numbers in the delivery of NHS services?

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« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:33am by Dave »  
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