Would it be possible to copy one of my posts No. 711 on page 48  NEG Progaganda as I doent know how to link and I think part of the problem is shown here from my talk to the PCT that they have been passed ambiguous information from higher up the chain - in particular if and when PCT asks GP's if their 0844 complies - See my point about Who GP's ask for this information from and what is acceptable by the PCT

speedy wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 3:33am:

You make some good very points, however there needs to be some further clarification.

Talk Talk did set the level of revenue share when originally applying for the 0844 ranges used by Surgery Line clients. IT DOES NOT DIRECTLY SET THE CHARGES INCURRED BY CALLERS, nor can it vary the rate of the revenue share in individual cases. There is some confusion caused by the fact that BT cannot add its own charge to the pence per minute revenue share rate (although it can add a call setup fee). No other provider is subject to this limitation.


A user of a 084 number can only determine the charges that will be incurred by callers by consulting the published tariffs of the various telephone companies through which people call them. They could ask NEG, Talk Talk, the PCT, the Department of Health or anyone else to do this job for them, or they could consult each of the telephone companies directly.

The implication that NEG or Talk Talk have any privileged access to this information is totally misleading. You and I are equally able to consult these published tariffs to determine what callers pay. It is also important to note that it not just what people pay which matters, but whether or not this is more than what they pay for an equivalent call to geographic number. In each case one has to look at both figures. I have published a summary with links to the published tariffs here.


The PCTs have not been misled from "higher up"; they have been misled by misrepresentations of the position of the Department of Health by the BMA and by NEG. Both claim to know what PCTs should do and say so loudly. It is actually for each PCT to make its own decisions, however it cannot go beyond the terms of the contract as drafted, because these are approved by parliament. Both the BMA and NEG claim that the terms of the contract include qualifications and provisions that are totally absent and well beyond the scope of what could be called "interpretation".

The simple truth is that there is no 084 number that is not more expensive to call for some patients of every GP surgery. If this were not the case, then 084 numbers could be used by NHS providers. It is however true; use of 084 numbers is, in effect, banned.

speedy wrote on Jul 30^th, 2011 at 5:21pm:

Telecommunications works by different operators interconnecting with one another. As a result, subscribers of one telephone company can call those with another.

If there were no interconnections, then those who have a BT line could only call other BT customers and not those with Virgin Media, O2, Orange and so on.

It is up to each call provider to set the rates that its customers pay to ring numbers. It is therefore not down to the receiver's telephone provider as to what the call cost is (except where the caller happens to be with the same telephone company).

The GP's contract does not stipulate which numbers can't be used or what the maximum cost of calls should be. What it does say is that (for the arrangement as a whole) calls should not cost more than an equivalent call to a geographic number.

The proof of what patients pay (and whether they pay more than their respective geographic charge) is in the tariffs of their own telephone providers.

For more on this see my blog: Who is responsible for setting the cost of a telephone call?


The BMA advocates that GPs should only ensure that patients don't pay more when calling from BT landline non-inclusive tariffs. This directly contradicts the recent statement in Parliament by a health minister as well as the principle that the NHS should be free at the point of need for all citizens and not just those that happen to purchase telecommunications from one private provider (BT).

More foolish comments on how telephone calls are charged:

Surgeries' call charges are making patients sick

Quote:

The phone providers of the GPs are irrelevant, unless they telephone their own 0844 numbers from their own surgeries just for the hell of it.  


Quote:

Does Mr Medwell consider himself to be a "person". Are his colleagues also "persons"?

The GMS Contract states that "having regard to the arrangement as a whole, persons will not pay more to make relevant calls to the practice than they would to make equivalent calls to a geographical number."

Doesn't say "patients". If Mr Medwell and his colleagues consider themselves as fitting the definition of "persons", then perhaps they could consider whether they pay more to ring the numbers in question from the PCT's office, or indeed their mobile phones provided by the PCT. Is this really too complex to do?  

Remember that it only requires one person to pay more than they would otherwise do to make it unacceptable to use the 0844 number. There is therefore no need to know what tariff every patient is on. Just one example... pretty much every mobile phone tariff.... a BT Payphone.....