SAYNOTO0870.COM - GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers banned

bazzerfewi Supreme Member Offline Baz Posts: 580 Barnsley Gender:	Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann Reply #45 - May 16^th, 2011 at 6:15am I have been in conact with Dan Jarvis MP for Barnsley Central in this regard and he is contacting the relvent minister, I will let you know the outcome when I receive a reply
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Dave

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West Pottergate Practice 0844 "local rate" lie
Reply #46 - May 18^th, 2011 at 11:26am

The latest NHS GP 0844 convert, Westpottergate Health Centre, says of its new number (click the link on its homepage to the PDF):
Quote:

1. What does this mean for us?

The use of 084 numbers in the NHS is supported by the Department of Health, so long as patients do not pay more than the cost of a local call; decisions on whether to adopt an 084 number will continue to be freely taken by an individual GP surgery, dental practice or other NHS organisation.

For virtually all patients' calls, the local GPs’ 084 number is not more expensive to call than using an ordinary number. More than 4.5 million patients use an 084 number to contact their GP surgery every month.

Patients pay local call rates with the 0844 number charges from landlines. If you use a mobile phone, depending on your provider and contract, such calls can cost more. Therefore, we encourage you to use a landline.

GPs do not make a single penny of individual profit from 084 numbers. NHS Direct also operates an 084 number.

Our new number from Wednesday, 11th May will be 08443 878911

These are the people that this government wishes to hand over control of the NHS to!

Since when have 0844 numbers been charged at the same price as a local call? Idiots.

Oh, and they don't make a single penny of profit - if West Pottergate Health Centre believes that this number is "local rate", then why does it feel the need to defend where its charges go?

See also this report from Norwich Evening News:
Norwich GP practice defends new 0844 number

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« Last Edit: May 18^th, 2011 at 11:26am by Dave »

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Dave

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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #47 - May 19^th, 2011 at 8:23pm

From Derby Telegraph:

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/news/Calls-GP-surgeries-cost-75p-minute-despit...

Quote:

This has benefited patients in Derbyshire who call from landlines as they now pay local rates for 084 numbers.

But both the Department of Health and Network Europe Group, which provides the 084 numbers to Derbyshire's doctors, admit they have little control over mobile phone charges.

Total nonsense!

I've blogged about how, using some simple logical thinking, it can be seen as a load of twaddle that 0845 calls are ever local rate:

Who is responsible for setting the cost of a telephone call?

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Barbara

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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #48 - May 20^th, 2011 at 8:54am

Can someone clarify for me exactly what is & isn't officially allowed in terms of 084X numbers (I know that this bears little relationship to practice but would like clarification on the actual rules)? I ask as Cheltenham General Hospital has 0845 numbers for everything, there is a geo alternative in the database which I suspect is for the switchboard but all their leafelts etc show various 0845 numbers. If they should not be using such nos under DoH rules, I will email their CE & point this out as well as requesting alternatives for all departments. Thank you. (I know this isn't strictly about the GP contract but it is still health service numbers & so there is a link I feel.)

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Dave

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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #49 - May 20^th, 2011 at 10:27am

Barbara wrote on May 20^th, 2011 at 8:54am:

Can someone clarify for me exactly what is & isn't officially allowed in terms of 084X numbers (I know that this bears little relationship to practice but would like clarification on the actual rules)? I ask as Cheltenham General Hospital has 0845 numbers for everything, there is a geo alternative in the database which I suspect is for the switchboard but all their leafelts etc show various 0845 numbers. If they should not be using such nos under DoH rules, I will email their CE & point this out as well as requesting alternatives for all departments. Thank you. (I know this isn't strictly about the GP contract but it is still health service numbers & so there is a link I feel.)

Directions to NHS Bodies concerning the cost of telephone calls:
http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/@dh/@en/documents/di...
Dear colleague letter:
http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalass...

These apply to hospitals as they are NHS bodies. GPs are not NHS bodies and are in fact NHS contractors which is why these don't apply to them, instead they are bound by the GMS contract.

A quick search of the forum for threads relating to Gloucestershire NHS Hospitals Foundation Trust (and Cheltenham Hospital and Gloucester Royal Hospital, of which they belong) reveals just one in the FOI section from 5 years ago.

Discussion of the alternatives would be best served in a new thread within the Requests section of the forum.

For now, I've retitled all entries for this trust to Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust as they were entered as various such as "Cheltenham Hospital" and "Gloucester Royal Hospital". This helps us see what numbers we have for this trust and the hospital name can be added to the Other Info field of entries so that they are picked up on a search.

Just a thought, you say that all the published numbers are 0845; the Cheltenham Hospital switchboard is 0845 422 2222 = 01242 222222, maybe other numbers translate in the same way, i.e. 0845 422 2xxx = 01242 222xxx or even 0845 422 xxxx = 01242 22xxxx.

Some 0845 numbers will probably be for Gloucester Royal Hospital, so obviously they will have 01452 numbers. One unverified entry says 0845 422 5523 = 01452 395523 for the Birth Unit, so perhaps 0845 422 5xxx = 01452 395xxx.

These are all just ideas and suggestions based on what I've seen in the database. As I say, it would be best to continue discussion of alternatives in the Requests section, and if a thread is started, I can move these paragraphs into a post over there.

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Dave

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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #50 - May 20^th, 2011 at 11:03am

Note that Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust lies about its 0845 number on its contact page saying "Calls from landlines are charged at local rates". It neglects to mention that this applies only to BT landlines which vary from others. The NHS should be available to all and access should not be favouring the customers of particular private telephone service providers.

The FOI response makes mention of such rubbish.

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« Last Edit: May 20^th, 2011 at 11:06am by Dave »

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Barbara

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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #51 - May 20^th, 2011 at 12:13pm

Thanks for this, Dave, it looks as if my understanding was correct that 084 numbers should not be used within the NHS including by hospitals. As soon as I get a moment, I will email the CE, draw his attention to the situation, quote your links & ask what they did to review the situation as required by December 2010! Will probably be barred from using the hospitals but even Addenbrookes didn't use 084Xs! I think I've found the name of the CE & the formula for their email addresses, will keep you posted.

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CJT-80

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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #52 - May 20^th, 2011 at 12:31pm

Dave,

If anyone can 'prove' (via a bill) that calling an 084 number is MORE expensive to them then calling an 01/02/03 number would that 'prove' that their local Dr's Surgery is breaking DoH Guidlines?

My local Surgery is looking to change it's number, but was told by the supplier that calls to it's 0844 number cost the same as a geographic call, which we know is untrue.

Just a thought

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« Last Edit: May 20^th, 2011 at 12:31pm by CJT-80 »

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CJT-80

Any comments made are my own and are not those of SayNoTo0870.com

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Dave

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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #53 - May 20^th, 2011 at 6:44pm

Source: Bournemouth Echo

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/9029019.NHS_users_still_being_stung_on_cal...

Quote:

A spokesperson from NHS Bournemouth and Poole said: “GP surgeries are able to use an 084 number as long as the tariff is equivalent to geographical local rates.

“Within the NHS Bournemouth and Poole area there are nine practices using an 084 number, all of which report to be charging local rates.

“We have requested that a contract variation is signed which commits practices to reviewing call costs to ensure they are in line with guidance so that calls to their 084 number are charged at a local rate for fixed lines.

“We will be expecting responses from all practices by the end of this month.”

A spokesperson for NHS Dorset said: “We can confirm that we have three practices in Dorset which use 084 numbers. These practices comply with the regulations, which means a call to them would cost no more than a call to a geographically equivalent number.”

More foolish comments from not one but two PCTs.

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Barbara

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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #54 - May 20^th, 2011 at 7:01pm

Dave, this seems particularly horrifying as vulnerable patients could call their 0844-using surgery, reassured by the inaccurate information about call costs from what they might perceive to be a reliable source, and incur massive bills having been totally misled, in these cases no information would be better than this rubbish. It is a pity someone who has been "stung" like this (obviously not a vulnerable or poor person but a wealthier, public spirited one) couldn't make a court case against those peddling this sort of false info. If such misleading info was supplied in any other circumstances it would surely fall foul of consumer protection law, if those giving out this info profited from this, it would surely be tantamount to fraud.

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CJT-80

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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #55 - May 21^st, 2011 at 10:42am

Ok, well I have a thought..

Those who have a landline with a calling package or a mobile on contract can "prove" that the cost of calling the 084 number is greater than a geographic call.

I get 600 inclusive minutes per month to 01/02/03/07 numbers (excluding some 07 calls) for £25. So I worked out 25/600 which = 0.041666. I guess that's the per minute charge?

Lets say with BT you get 1000 minutes on the AnyTime plan ( for arguments sake) we pay £5.00 per month so that's 5/1000 which is 0.005.

Now lets look at 0844 calls. My local surgery uses 0844 477 which is charged at BT's G6 rate of 5.105p per minute PLUS a 12.50p connection charge making the 1st minute 16.55 p ? This is approx,

By my very rough calculations I have proved it costs MORE than a geographic call to use the 0844 number to call my sugery.

Now if I can work that out why can't our over paid MP's work it out!

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« Last Edit: May 21^st, 2011 at 10:42am by CJT-80 »

Regards,

CJT-80

Any comments made are my own and are not those of SayNoTo0870.com

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Keith

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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #56 - May 21^st, 2011 at 1:53pm

I think it is reasonable to assume that the PCTs and health department are not all idiots.

It is also abundantly clear that the vast majority (by a long way) of people are either using mobiles with inclusive contracts, PAYG mobiles or landlines with inclusive contracts.

For these 3 groups of people (whom make up the majority of the population) we are not talking about a 'slight' differences between the cost of calling a 'local number' and the cost of calling an 0844 number. The difference in price is vast.

For example for me to call a local number from my landline the cost is completely free, but typically for me to call my local surgery the cost is around 50p to £2.

This is very simple, so one must assume there is more behind the fact that the PCTs and government have not cracked down on this practise.

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bazzerfewi

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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #57 - May 21^st, 2011 at 6:28pm

Obviously all providers of 084X numbers will point out the benefit of an 084X number, portability etc but surely when they start quoting false information such as call charges and not quoting the connection charge they are miss quoting and as such they are breaking the law.

It there not a body that regulate false information and if so who is it as they need reporting for falsifying information

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derrick

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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #58 - May 22^nd, 2011 at 10:54am

bazzerfewi wrote on May 21^st, 2011 at 6:28pm:

Obviously all providers of 084X numbers will point out the benefit of an 084X number, portability etc but surely when they start quoting false information such as call charges and not quoting the connection charge they are miss quoting and as such they are breaking the law.

It there not a body that regulate false information and if so who is it as they need reporting for falsifying information

There is, Trading Standards, but don't hold your breath that they will do anything, the ASA may do something as they now police websites

The regulation they are breaking is the Consumer Protection Act 1987 Part III Misleading Price Indications.

See East Sussex TS Business sheet on Special services telephone numbers under Law and penalties via this url;-
http://www.eastsussex.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/735C4641-4E0A-48DA-BA19-8A5007CE0AB6/0...

Also HERE where they mention Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, also under Law and penalties.

.

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« Last Edit: May 22^nd, 2011 at 10:55am by derrick »

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bazzerfewi

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Re: GP contract revised - "expensive" numbers bann
Reply #59 - May 23^rd, 2011 at 3:17am

I have contacted my local MP Dan Jarvis for Barnsley Central in this regard, if others contact their MP or even Dan Jarvis we could make headway

If you wish to contact Dan Jarvis he is the MP for barnsley central - if you enter local MP in google and enter S71 2HS the system will return his details to contact him directly

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