Hi what do you mean "Reverse engineer calls" do you mean charge the customer for the call?

As far as i'm aware, OCPs are not routinely aware of the underlying geographical to a NGN number.  If they were at the time a call is made to a NGN then they would convert it to the underlying geographical number and route it geograhpically which is cheaper than via the NGN route.

Eg:

Geographical called:  Joe Bloggs rings Company A on their 0161... number.  The OCP (originating call provider - Virgin in this case) routes the call via their own network where possible right upto the Manchester exchange and the call is then passed over to the telephone provider of Company A (in this example let's say BT).  As the call is kept on Virgin network for as long as possible then costs are kept to a minimum.

NGN (084x, etc numbers): Joe Bloggs rings Company B on their 0845 number even though they are based in Manchester.  Virgin, the OCP, would look-up the company that owns the 0845 number (we'll use BT again as an example) and then passes the call over to them where BT then look-up their own database and route the call to Company B on their 0161 geographical number.  As Virgin have had to pass the call to BT almost straight away then Virgin now have to pay extra charges for calls passed to BT.

If a telecoms provider like Virgin actually knew the geographical number of Company B themselves then Virgin could have routed the call to Company B using their own network to save costs bypassing the telecoms provider of the 0845 number.

The only time telecoms provider may know the geographical behind a 0845 right from the beginning is if the 0845 belongs to the same telecoms provider as where the call originated.  For example, Virgin originated the call and the 0845 number belongs to them so they knew the underlying geographical number.

rfctabs wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 12:59pm:

I believe that Tesco's provider is Cable & Wireless:

http://www.itpro.co.uk/201609/tesco-signs-cable-wireless-in-100-million-it-deal

My belief has been re-enforced because Ipswich's branches have moved from BT allocated 01473 numbers to C&W ones.

Dave wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 1:12pm:
Same here.

As I don't believe VM have access to a central database of NGNs and their underlying geographicals then one other question is where are they getting the information from?  One guess would be SayNo as we know telecom companies are, well the larger ones, aware of this site and have in the past encouraged their customers who moan about the cost of NGNs to lookup alternatives here.

I know VM and some of the larger telecom providers often look for unusually high call volumes to 01/02 numbers and then would dig deeper to see what/why, etc.  However, in this specific case, there wouldn't be an unusually high call volume to Tesco's geographical that would ring red flags with VM.

Quote:


In my opinion, if VM (or any other OCP), wants to have different tariffs for 'special' 01/02 numbers then at the very least they have to make their customers aware and would have to publish a list of these 'special' numbers.

Without VM mentioning and therefore excluding such 'special' numbers then VM can't charge you anything but a geographical rate as it would be classed as incorrect billing on behalf of VM.  You have dialled a geographical number so you should get charged a geographical rate (or included) depending on tariff, etc.

As Dave points out, BT do charge different prices for dial-up ISP 01/02 numbers and I assume this is mentioned somewhere in the smallprint.  I'm sure it was many years ago but it may not be now because BT may not charge differently now due to lack of demand for dial-up.

As mentioned earlier, I would email Watchdog.

Could anyone else on VM confirm this so to ensure it's widespread rather than localised?

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 11^th, 2011 at 3:33pm:

Update to the above posting.

I made the call as arranged, I also made another call - dialling the 0845 number.

The online record of un-billed charges shows only the call dialled to the 0845 number - correctly calculated as 22p (including VAT) for a 7 second call.

Charges will be recalculated when the actual bill is prepared in around 10 days time, so nothing has yet been proved. If others have seen the charge for the "operator connected" call on their list of un-billed charges however, then something is different.

I will report again when my bill is prepared.

---

P.S. I have spotted some mistakes in one of my previous postings. I correct them below:

1. I omitted a hyperlink to the Virgin media tariffs page

Quote:

2. I also quoted VAT inclusive charges for comparison with the VAT exclusive amount shown on the unbilled charges. I now show the VAT exclusive amounts.

Quote:

rfctabs wrote on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 10:17am:

I simply contacted the customer services (billing) department. I asked them to confirm what charge they would expect to see for my dialled call to the 0121 number and informed them of what would arise if it were found that I were billed differently. With this conversation noted on the account prior to the call being made, it would be more difficult for them to simply state that I must have made an operator connected call.

It is possible that a different billing mechanism is being used for my account as VM may not have yet fully completed the amalgamation of the different systems which it inherited. It is also possible that the cause of the error previously encountered has quietly been removed (possible even just from this single number!).

I think it highly unlikely that someone was able to fix my account to prevent my attempt to expose this situation from being successful - I do however accept that some would think that giving warning invalidates my test.

With a similar experience having been reported on a different geo Tesco number, I cannot accept that there is nothing funny going on here. I am confident that what has been reported is illegitimate. We need help from volunteers to confirm the nature and extent of what it is, so that the necessary corrective action can be taken.

SilentCallsVictim wrote on Aug 12^th, 2011 at 9:59am:

No need to wait, the magic is performed earlier!

Re-checking my un-billed charges an earlier item has appeared - Yes you guessed it:

Quote:

I am waiting for an explanation from Virgin Media.